On the Indo-Islamic in Bombay cinema

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The media is agog with promos of Shah Rukh Khan’s “My Name is Khan”, an unusual Hindi film selling itself with the name of the Muslim protagonist. Though an increasingly rare instance now, Shah Rukh’s film is merely walking down the lane populated by countless Muslim historicals, social dramas and the like. Remember the likes of “Ghalib”, “Shah Jahan”, “Raziya Sultan”, etc?

That’s fine. But when was the last time you saw an out and out Muslim social or a historical drama? Yes, we had Ashutosh Gowariker’s “Jodhaa-Akbar” recently — significantly the film that related the love story of the greatest Moghul ruler had his name following that of the princess — and the low-profile “Tehzeeb”, “Fiza” and “Anwar” a little before that. By the way, Shah Rukh’s name Kabir was almost incidental to “Chak de India”.

Quietly, almost imperceptibly, our film industry with the changing global political climate has virtually bid adieu to the Muslim social/historical. It was not so even a couple of decades ago when ace director Manmohan Desai who was majorly responsible for crafting Amitabh Bachchan’s angry young man persona said, “If Muslims do not like a film, it flops”. Not to mention the withholding of major releases in the month of Ramzan when the faithful stay away from theatres. Politically expedient cinema seems to rule the roost.

Not just Muslim subjects or films based in a normal every day Muslim family, have died a silent death, Muslim ethos seems to have vanished too. The ideals of tehzeeb, cultured interaction, free flowing poetry, rulers with a sense of justice, have all declined.

A far cry from the days when a run of the mill film called “Villain” could have the evil guy quote Ghalib even as he captured the heroine using disguise! “Badal kar faqiron ka hum bhes Ghalib Tamashai-i-abl-i-karam dekhte hain,” he said and the masses applauded.

All the more reason to take some time out for Ira Bhaskar and Richard Allen’s labour of love called “Islamicate Cultures of Bombay Cinema”, a 340-odd page saga that seems destined to live longer than the subject in these turbulent times. Though Ira and her co-author’s work opens only a window to the Muslim culture, what it reveals is vital, what it conceals is suggestive.

Universal ethos

Probably taking inspiration from the words of Rumi who once said, “The house of love has doors and roofs made of music, melody and poetry”, Ira focuses on the Muslim ethos of the industry, on films that talked of sense of justice of the Moghul rulers and a culture that resonated with Urdu poetry borrowing liberally from Perso-Arabic sources.

Beginning with the silent era films most of which talked of the sense of equal partnership of Moghul rulers with their non-Muslim subjects, and on to films like “Pukar” and “Mughal-e-Azam”, Ira makes a neat delineation of Muslim historicals, classic socials, courtesan films and new wave Muslim socials.

Of course, there is no room for the likes of “Aamir” or “Chak De India”. In these films, the subject was Muslim but the ethos more universal, the unique cultural elegance, the throb of passion, the graces and courtesies all absent. “We stopped at the year 2000. ‘Aamir’ and all came later,” clarifies Ira.

The book that was released some time back, emanated from a film festival in Abu Dhabi. Ira had helped curate a festival of films titled ‘Muslim Cultures of Bombay Cinema’ that took place under the auspices of the New York University Institute in Abu Dhabi. Says Ira, “The work on this book started about five years ago. A lot of work was done during my dissertation, then Prof Allen asked me to collaborate for the film festival. We decided to do the book instead of just a catalogue as very little material was available for students.”

Says Ira, who is an associate professor of cinema studies at Jawaharlal Nehru University, “The book explores the Islamicate cultures that richly inform Bombay cinema. These cultures are imagined forms of the past, and therefore a contested site of histories and identities. Yet they also form a culturally potent and aesthetically fertile reservoir of images and idioms through which Muslim communities are represented and represent themselves.”

Sense of justice

She talks in great detail about the Muslim rulers’ sense of justice. “Our films have projected the Moghul rulers as apostles of justice for two ideological reasons. During the anti-colonial ruler, they were the symbols of power and repositories of justice. Then during Nehruvian era after Independence, films showed them as symbols of tolerance. Films fulfilled two different ideological functions in two different times.”

And how does she see “Jodhaa-Akbar”? “The film is so named because of gender reasons. Also, an attempt is made to give importance of Jodha. Ashutosh could do it because there is no historical evidence about her. He could invest the character on his own.”

Fine. But even Ira’s book talks of Muslim stereotypes, at least with respect to classic socials dealing with nautch girls and nawabs. “Nawabs populated an imaginary world and people argue that not all nawabs were like that. But certain stereotypes are necessary to show a certain slab of our society. And nawabi culture was certainly aristocratic, steeped in Persian and chaste Urdu.”

However, the book that talks of contribution of many non-Muslims in the making of Muslim classics — likes of Sohrab Modi, Guru Dutt, Shyam Benegal — ignores many important films like “Sahib Bibi aur Ghulam” and also films that had a prominent Muslim character without falling into the classification of a Muslim social? Films like “Amar Akbar Anthony”, “Gadar” and later “Bus Itna Sa Khwab Hai?

“We did not touch those films because they were not Muslim socials. Maybe they will be the subject of my next book.” If the next book comes with as fresh an approach and a blend of scholarly wisdom and aesthete’s eye, it will be worth waiting for.

71 Responses to “On the Indo-Islamic in Bombay cinema”

  1. I would be very interesting in this book. However I think a line needs to be drawn between the Nehruvian (therefore more inclusive) social fabric of the masala tradition best represented by Desai and the ghettoizing impulse of the so called ‘Muslim social’ which I think is best left in the past!

  2. and ‘Indo-Islamic’ is a better more precise term than ‘Islamicate’ for the North Indian inflected ‘culture’ that was prevalent in Bombay cinema for the longest time.

  3. Yeah, I was just commenting on Facebook to a friend; am quite glad to see the back of the “Muslim social” myself :-)

  4. ““If Muslims do not like a film, it flops”.”

    This statement indicates Desai’s own commitment to his AAA ideal more than anything else…

  5. There are many lovers of old films and history of hindi films who loved these muslim socials, I for one.

    One is forced to see the back of them and I do think if made like that today they would be out of place, considering the atmosphere.

    I’m waiting with bated breath to see whether MNIK succeeds because it will show how the atmosphere stands today.
    Will it interest people or has the atmosphere become too charged for such things?

    Of course keeping in view whether the film engages, because if it doesn’t then one can’t blame the charged atmosphere for that.

    I don’t know why Sahib Bibi aur Ghualam has been mentioned as being ignored in the discussion of muslim socials. It wasn’t one.
    Perhaps Chaudvin ka chand was the one meant.

    • If the atmosphere were so charged for films to fail just for that reason how would NY succeed?!

      MNIK will succeed or film based on whether it entertains or not and not based on these other reasons.

  6. >how would NY succeed?!

    I don’t think that MNIK will be called a success if its BO is like that of NY (I think. I don’t know much about these things).
    It wasn’t that grand a success, was it?
    Neither did it make so much noise.

    >MNIK will succeed or film based on whether it entertains or not and not based on these other reasons.

    I did say that as the main reason.
    But I think the other would also be true. I wonder if the Shiv senaites will go, or the BJP and its family.
    I firmly believe that JA would have been far more successful if the atmosphere hadn’t been charged by these people.

    I’m expecting predictable comments that I’m setting up the stage in case MNIK fails. Then I can say that it was because of this.
    I promise not to say that if the film itself is unengaging (generally speaking, not according to critics/haters).

    But I’m really interested (as a case study) to see how it is accepted as a rare muslim film (a big one) today.

  7. It seems an explanation is being prepared for My Name is Khan in advance? This is a completely unfounded comment, and mischievous to suggest that if the film didn’t work, it would have to be because of “the atmosphere”; didn’t Kabhi Alvida Na Kehna fail in India despite the atmosphere? The fact is that Karan Johar is forgetting what made SRK successful in the first place, whereas Farah Khan has not, and this is the second time Johar has strayed (from the previews the film seems utterly boring and predictable to me) — despite organized right-wing protests in many centers, Jodha-Akbar was a superhit; and Umraojaan surely did not flop for any reason other than that people had no interest in that sort of film. New York is a good example, as was Khakee a few years ago; just as Fanaa worked whereas Kurbaan did not — one was found to be the more entertaining film. In fact, when it comes to representations of Muslims, the atmosphere was far more charged in the 1990s, when the stock film Muslim was often a terrorist — whereas these days one often has very “normal” characters who happen to be Muslim (e.g. in Hirani films).

    Personally, despite being a lover of old Hindi films, and a Muslim to boot, I could never stand these “Muslim socials” — I found the representation of Muslims in them (as something removed from “ordinary” life, as preserved in amber and hence irremediably “past”, the very ethos presented as nothing other than preciousness) to be highly problematic.

    • agreed on all counts.. and Fanaa is in fact a great example.. here’s an unrepentant terrorist and it was still a big one!

    • In fact, this article confirms my point with a line like: “Not just Muslim subjects or films based in a normal every day Muslim family, have died a silent death, Muslim ethos seems to have vanished too. The ideals of tehzeeb, cultured interaction, free flowing poetry, rulers with a sense of justice, have all declined.”

      This is exactly the sort of thing for which I found the “Muslim socials” problematic too — they might superficially seem to pander to a certain high-Urdu speaking Muslim self-image, but such stereotypes imprison. In fact, “Muslim ethos” is presented as precisely THAT WHICH HAS VANISHED — such that, in the “Muslim social”, even if the era is shown to be contemporary, everyone comports themselves as if it were (an idealized) 1850 or 1900. The glaring hole was of course any engagement with how contemporary/ordinary Muslims live their lives — consider the idealizations of an Amar Akbar Anthony or a Coolie, where Rishi or Amitabh weren’t just Muslims, they were Muslims WHO WERE PART OF THE VERY FABRIC OF CONTEMPORARY INDIAN LIFE. It is this crucial distinction that makes me prefer them to the representations of both the “muslim social” (the Muslim-as-social-artifact) and the “topical” film (the Muslim-as-political/national security-problem; this group includes films like New York, Kurbaan, and most certainly My Name is Khan; this group can include some very good films — Khakee, for instance — but allows the Muslim the freedom to only play two roles: terrorist or victim), and to hearken to the sort of thing we see in Munnabhai MBBS or 3 Idiots or Chalte Chalte or Armaan (the Muslim who could be your neighbor).

    • “despite organized right-wing protests in many centers, Jodha-Akbar was a superhit”
      I think it started as a caste issue. But I guess religious wing elments picked up the issue from there.

  8. oldgold, our comments crossed; I see you have attempted to address some of the points I have raised.

    Re: “I firmly believe that JA would have been far more successful if the atmosphere hadn’t been charged by these people.”

    How much more could it have made? It made north of 60 crores, can one really expect more from a very long, relatively serious film lacking in comedy, etc.? Heck, films like Race and Love Aaj Kal did not make more, only the biggest SRK or Hrithik films, or Aamir films, or an Akki/Bazmee film, make more money than this, even today. So this is a very creditable performance.

    Second, right-wing protests were a bigger issue in relatively small centers in Rajasthan and Madhya Pradesh. In the biggest money-spinning centers like Mumbai or Delhi, there weren’t shows disrupted that I recall. In short, you say “But I’m really interested (as a case study) to see how it is accepted as a rare muslim film (a big one) today.” but I think you already have your answer with Jodha-Akbar, a far more charged subject potentially than My Name is Khan (as no one cares much if the US is shown in a bad light); with New York also you have your answer: a film like that made 40+ crores or thereabouts with very limited star appeal; what excuse will there be if My Name is Khan doesn’t have a very very healthy gross? [Conversely, if it DOES have a healthy gross, will you then say that you were wrong about "the atmosphere"?]

    BTW, as an aside, I think people should seriously consider subtitles: I heard from a could of people in India that they would have wished there were subtitles, as it was difficult for them to follow all the dialogs. I think that the younger generation often has far more limited exposure to Urdu (and, if they are from big cities, often even shudh Hindi is a problem), and I think it 00 at the margins — does affect films like this.

    • for a film that appealed only to the family audience and was that long (hence lesser shows) it’s trending was very stable. It was never going to appeal much to a younger audience. But despite all the political protest on it in some parts of India this film’s box office wasn’t affected at all by all of it (unless one counts some of the Rajasthan bans that probably cost it all of Rs 5!).

  9. Oldgold: frankly your entire line of reasoning offends me a little bit on this subject. all kinds of films in all kinds of genres flop for all sorts of reasons. The idea that MNIK might not succeed because of a ‘religious bias’ in the audience is I think very unfair. All the ‘charged’ atmosphere of Bombay Sena politics or that of the BJP nationally did not prevent SRK from becoming a top star. Nor Aamir and Salman. So the audience doesn’t mind Muslim stars being on top but will simply flop films they would otherwise enjoy only because such a subject is touched? C’mon! why are you even introducing this explanation when it is so patently false? People have never seen or rejected films based on such reasons.

    • Yes, it is odd to assert that “the atmosphere” prevents a film showing Muslims as victims from becoming a hit, but doesn’t prevent three Muslims, routinely referred to as “the Khans”, and who certainly aren’t shy about their identity (as the likes of Yousuf Khan a.k.a Dilip Kumar were, suggesting that the atmosphere is in some respects better), from remaining three of the country’s biggest stars for basically two decades.

    • Didn’t one of you just say *that* in another thread (I forget which one) that SRK had better stop his Islam preaching about the film because most NRIs are BJP and so it would not be good.

      Anyway, my comments about MNIK is because of the *subject* it deals with. All the films that you have mentioned, none of them deal with this subject.

      Why are people angry with SRK for saying what he did (IPL issue)?
      The scenario is rather similar on which I’m basing my thoughts.
      And yes, I agree that by and large Indians do not think in this frenzied a manner as on the internet.

      • Re: “Didn’t one of you just say *that* in another thread (I forget which one) that SRK had better stop his Islam preaching about the film because most NRIs are BJP and so it would not be good.”

        “I even had her in the shower…

        • That made you angry? Why?
          So, he said his father came from Pakistan (incidentally, so did my father).
          I see that as an additional information (since he’s talking about Pakistan) rather than something sinister.

          Most of these actors seem to ramble a lot during interviews. Even in that Amir video you have put up, he’s rambling on and taking so long to say what he wants.

          Whether SRK starts feeling the victim afterwards or not, he certainly is your victim. ;-)

          If you liked him, you would have praised him for tackling an issue *in spite of* not having suffered because of it. His position and popularity would bring more awareness than any slogan mongering or posters etc
          If he spoke up only after becoming a victim it would have been called self serving. That he should try to spread whatever message he wants to *for others* would have been commended.

          But its SRK and so its all bad and wrong.

          • I may have read the wrong post (or the part that came on to the screen).

            But nevertheless, I have also written on what you have written at Amitabh’s blog about SRK becoming a victim.

          • on the victimization thing I agree completely with the thoughts expressed here:

            http://satyamshot.wordpress.com/2010/01/21/my-name-is-kaul/#comment-36720

          • “So, he said his father came from Pakistan”

            But isnt that sort of characterization wrong? Pre-partition, there was no Pakistan, there was only one India. By that token, all those hindus who migrated during partition from what was once western India, should maintain good neighbourly relations with those people who forcibly evicted them from ancestral homes going back centuries?

            SRK actually made opened a can of worms by commenting that way. He re-opened wounds of millions who bristle at the injustices of partition. And all these emotions will be incomprehensible to the same people who also were dumbstruck by the success of a movie like Gadar. In addition to that he bulldozed the concerns of those people who frankly are weary at GOI giving any more sops to a country that is relentless in its nefarious strategies.
            I am not even sure what SRK really thought he was aiming for with those comments.

          • I will agree here and I did make the point elsewhere that referring to pre-partition India as Pakistan is simply inaccurate.

          • >I will agree here and I did make the point elsewhere that referring to pre-partition India as Pakistan is simply inaccurate.

            This inaccuracy is very common.
            We all refer to India as India throughout its history from before the Colonial times.

          • yes indeed he is my victim as revealed here:

            http://satyamshot.wordpress.com/2010/01/21/my-name-is-kaul/#comment-36685

            the only victim with that sort of response on your part is ‘reason’! and I say this because when you’re debating you can’t suddenly turn around and start saying ‘satyam’s so mean to SRK’! Perhaps I am not being as fair to him as you are to Aamir.

  10. >and Umraojaan surely did not flop for any reason other than that **people had no interest in that sort of film**.

    That is exactly what I’m trying to ask?
    Are people interested in this sort of film?
    Are they going to accept what the film wants to say?
    After all we don’t want to look upon the cricket players kindly because they come from Pakistan.

    As for preparing anything in advance for MNIK, in reality its only now I’m beginning to think it might just scrape through. Earlier I had no hopes for it.
    I too think its a bit boring and unexciting according to the trailers, but I’ve learnt my lesson. 3I trailers hadn’t impressed me, but I liked the film (though not as much as most people), so there is still hope that MNIK might surprise.

    • Re: “Are people interested in this sort of film?”

      What is “this” sort of film? Films that are interminably boring? If so, I agree with you. I myself would never have seen Umraojaan in the cinema had Abhishek Bachchan not been in it, and this despite Ash’s beauty in the film. Nevertheless I cannot say I left happy.

  11. Re: “3I trailers hadn’t impressed me, but I liked the film (though not as much as most people), so there is still hope that MNIK might surprise.”

    there you might have a point: in recent times I thought the Dhoom 2 trailers sucked (except for the first one), as did the ones for Fanaa; and even 3 Idiots had a highly mediocre set, but the films grossed hugely.

    Re: “After all we don’t want to look upon the cricket players kindly because they come from Pakistan.”

    But this assumes that Indian audiences do not draw any distinction between Muslim Indians and Pakistan. SRK is playing the former in this film. Secondly, even as to the latter, the outpouring of people in the media, world of celebrities, and even studio audiences who seem quite sympathetic to the Pakistani players, suggests that you are jumping the gun in conflating the “we” with those, like the Shiv Sena, who have issues. SRK, Amitabh, and now Aamir have all made supporting noises — I don’t want to sound too cynical, but would they have said the same if they had felt this would be a violently unpopular and minority position? Quite frankly, I think SRK has gotten sympathy from the public…

    • MNIK looks like a drab film. Just looks unexciting. With 3 Idiots I felt Hirani was hiding the best bits and in any case felt far more confident with whatever trailers were on offer that the film would be excellent [based on Hirani's reputation]. With MNIK, Johar hardly enfuses that confidence. Trailer though is just that. No correlation to box office or quality so who knows, MNIK can still surprise.

  12. Qalander
    >[Conversely, if it DOES have a healthy gross, will you then say that you were wrong about "the atmosphere"?]

    Happily :-)

    I want to be proved wrong about the atmosphere thing.
    MNIK should flop if it is boring and uninteresting.

  13. OK. Since I thought my credibility was at stake about a comment in another thread, I have wasted much precious time and finally unearthed it.

    It is in the thread titled My Name is Kaul.
    The post is by Nykavi dated 30th (today) and somewhere at the lower end of the posts.
    I’m pasting the part I referred to;

    >At the same time, Fox is going all out to promote MNIK in the US through various events, including a Nasdaq appearance.

    These guys better tone down the Islamic references, one thing that I do know about US NRI audiences, a lot of them are BJP supporters and not exactly the types to sit through a 3hr lesson on Islam.

    • Well I’m certainly (and I am sure NYkavi would agree as to himself) not “one of ____” :-) Don’t think one should lump together all people who are critiquing the film and the issues surrounding it…

    • OldGold
      Let me make this clear.
      First of all, without seeing the movie, all that any of us are engaging in is pure speculation. The first review/SMS/blogpost after the FDFS will either confirm or completely disprove these speculations.
      Whatever the message of the movie, if it is not engaging, it will not do well. But then, one also has to understand what “engages” an audience. JA was engaging because of the historical narrative, and it did well enough for its length and pace. So did Fanaa. None of these movies were preachy, or condescending to viewpoints held by the audiences.

      Re: my statement about toning down Islamic references.
      I shudve not even mentioned BJP supporters. One need not be a BJP supporter to be against SRK’s stance on the IPL issue, or the message of MNIK. A person can independently decide based on their own life experiences if they are for or against these viewpoints. You cannot club together everyone who is against SRK’s IPL stance as being a hard-right sympathizer. In fact, I see many people commenting in diff blogs that they hate SS, but they also cannot agree with SRK.

      I was actually surprised that SRK put it in words with regards to MNIK being a platform of showcasing the positives of Islam vs perceived notions. He also talks of trying to court muslims in interiors to see this movie. My comments are made in that light. All this while, KJo was running around town calling this a lovestory, despite the trailers giving away other vibes. Now finally, SRK talks about it being much more than a lovestory. In a way, they are coming clean with their message. If these viewpoints do not match the audience’s, the “engagement” will not happen. You cannot blame the ‘atmosphere’ for that. I dont think the atmosphere was any better (or worse) during the release of JA or Fanaa. Specifically in the US context, tthose movies too were released after 9/11. In fact, the raisone d’etre of MNIK is 9/11 and its aftermath.

      My apprehensions, as stated in previous threads is that the perceived message (from what I can decipher in the trailers) is that the US was a big bad place for Muslims after 9/11. As it stands now, there are two distinct sets of audiences who either support or completely reject that viewpoint.
      So now, unless SRk-KJo can present a message that is in synch with the belief’s-experiences of audiences, it will not engage. Or perhaps it will only engage with those who are sympathetic to that viewpoint. I predict, that unless Kjo has handled this sensitively, the movie may be really very divisive in its reactions.
      But again, you cannot blame the atmosphere. The movie has been made to address the post 9/11 atmosphere.

      • In coninuation..
        There are many who argue that this movie ought to be viewed just as a movie, a work of fiction. They say that movies like Fanaa, Kurbaan, Aamir etc dealt with terrorism, so why no one raised issues with them. I think, that argument is not at all nuanced. None of those movies showcased real-life incidents which MNIK will supposedly do (again, as seen in the trailers). This puts a greater burden on MNIK to match the viewpoints of those who experienced these incidents.

        • yes but a fiction that deals with India might be considered more potent than one that has nothing to do with India!

          • But that is another discussion altogether. Indians, regardless of their religion/caste, enjoy the fruits of well-inentioned and by now very equitable and functioning democracy. An Indian Muslim has no cause to complain, especially when you view the situation relative to muslims in other Islamic countries. Even the so called wealthy GCC nations have multiple-tier citizenships for their own muslim constituents. How can any Indian muslim compain?
            The fact that there have been no riots after all the terrorist incidents of the past proves that Indians have learnt to unite, despite the divisive agenda of the attacks and threats posed by Pakistan. So, how can KJo ever make an MNIK in the Indian context?

            Which brings us to the only other market, that being the US. And in agreement with Qbhai below, yes, this message in a post-Obama world is very stale. And here too, by showcasing the plight of an Indian Muslim, they miss the mark. By and large Indian Muslims in the US are well educated, well off and untouched by all these perceived injustices. Racial profiling, is in fact done more on Arabs. So if they wanted to raise that issue, this movie shudve been made in Arabic, not in Hindi! The target is way off mark here.

      • Re: “I shudve not even mentioned BJP supporters. One need not be a BJP supporter to be against SRK’s stance on the IPL issue, or the message of MNIK.”

        That is true — I have long critiqued the “pandering” that I see as inherent in a film like My Name is Khan (see, e.g. HERE), and I sure ain’t no BJP-supporter :-)

        • PS– on the “atmosphere”, the film’s biggest problem might not be hostility but staleness. I mean, the film seems a little dated by now, when even Obama’s election is old news (and this is basically a film on “Dubya’s America” in a sense)…

    • That is NYkavi’s perception and frankly completely off the mark.. the same ‘BJP supporters’ have been SRK’s biggest base in India or outside over the years! To be even more blunt about it I think we sometimes tend to think in certain ways when it comes to these matters and we project these things onto the others (in this case the audience).

      • As mentioned in my reply to OldGold above, I shudve not even stated “BJP supporters”.
        I agree that the these same audiences have been SRK’s biggest fanbases, but those same audiences have also openly welcomed Aamir recently. These audiences do not distinguish performers based on their religion. But they do distinghuish movies by their message.
        As long as SRK was playing Raj-Rahul-Suri, in movies with simple romantic messages, it was acceptable. He is not this time, and the message is risky in whether it is in synch with the audiences now.

        • I do not think the initial will be affected, everyone knows what the film is about. To the extent that it is that would indicate declining interest in SRK. Think about it — Ghajini opened better than RNBDJ. How did that happen?!

          • Ghajini opening better than Rab Ne Banadi Jodi in the US is one of the most surprising things in recent years, when it comes to the box-office. Amazing.

  14. “So, how can KJo ever make an MNIK in the Indian context?”

    I’m amazed at your statement Nykavi? No violence in Bombay in ’93? No violence in Gujarat over a still shrouded in mystery Godhra episode? Have you ever thought about the encounters so many Muslims in many localities have with the police? Or what happens in downmarket Muslim communities whenever such bomb blasts and the like happen? Karan Johar could make a film about what happened to Muslims in the US 9/11 but not about what happens to them all the time in India when such incidents happen?! Have you ever looked into the abuses of TADA and POTA and what community was most impacted? Citizenship? do you honestly believe that holding the very same passport makes everyone exactly ‘equal’?

    • Satyam
      Totally agree with you on all counts. But all this is the past. Hear out my POV on this:
      The perpetrators/enablers of Gujurat, ie BJP, have been twice punished in the general elections. Yes, Modi hasnt, but I will also ask you to go to Gujurat today and ask a Muslim, if he is not happily cashing in the fruits of development in that state. From what I know, there are more muslims from UP coming to live in Gujurat than in Maharashtra due to the wave of industrialization and better infrastructure out there.

      The early 90s violence of Bombay was answered by Dawood with equal force via those bombings a few months later. And, from my recollection, TODA/POTA have been repealed years ago. This is also one reason why abuses against muslims in general have reduced since the Cong came to power.

      As it stands today, justice (or karma or revenge) on both sides has been served. And both sides have moved on. The fact that there have not been riots at the scale of Gujurat in several years is testament to greater reconciliation between the two sides. The threats which we face today are entirely foreign.

      Corporatization and growth has actually increased interactions between people of the two communities, to much higer levels in the last decade as compared to any other time previously. As long as people are educated and qualified, most private companies do not discriminate in hiring. One of the biggest reasons this happened was due to acute shortage of qualified individuals. I would argue that the very fact we talk of the Khans ruling bwood is testament to this new Indian reality. In light of such current events, do you still think KjO would risk an Indian version of MNIK that doesnt sit too well with their main target, ie the multiplex audience? Better present ignorant views of a distant land, and try to justify the story in that way.

      • Also, movies like Dev, Khakee, Parzania have highlighted the abuse that took place historically. All 3 of these movies directly or indirectly showcased the abuses of Gujurat. They pretty much covered the history and provided reflection, which was indeed appreciated. What can Kjo do more to outdo the directors of those esteemed movies?

  15. Wow, I sure missed a lot of action today!

    Qalandar, to go back to the original article in your post, it seems rather one-sided to me. Or rather, to have decided on their conclusion first, before looking at the evidence. Why is the “decline of the Muslim ethos” attributed to a change in the atmosphere? As Satyam mentioned, the urban audience barely understands either chaste Hindi or Urdu. Isn’t that the more likely reason why beautiful Urdu/Persian poetry is not found in today’s films? Besides, what “atmosphere” is the author talking about? You yourself (Qalandar) in your Outlook piece some time ago mentioned that no representation of any religion is to be found in Hindi films today — neither Muslim nor Hindu. Is that also to be attributed to the changed atmosphere, which presumably is all pro-Hindu? I don’t find the arguments in that article convincing at all.

    I share the desire to see stories of Muslims as everyday folks. BTW, in listing the non-terrorist Muslim characters in various films, why are the Rajshri films completely ignored? They might be criticized for being too syrupy, but there is no ignoring the fact that they always take pains to have at least one prominent Muslim character, and, moreover, to show great friendship between the Muslim and Hindu characters.

    • SM: I’m not sure who/what you are arguing against? I certainly did not post this article as one I was endorsing, in fact many many of my comments on this blog would argue precisely the opposite (especially on “atmosphere”). On not understanding chaste Urdu, in fact, I believe I brought it up in a comment on this very thread… If you’re only talking about the article, I agree with much of what you have written — if we must speak of changes in atmosphere, I believe it is more instructive to look at changes in representations OF the Muslim, not in the vanishing of some (real or imagined) ethos that is remote from the lives of virtually all contemporary Indians, Hindu OR Muslim or anyone else.

      • Good, then we are in agreement. I was arguing against the article posted. It wasn’t clear to me where you stood on that, though you disagreed with parts of it.

        • Sorry, edited my comment as you were posting yours above (added the last sentence).

          • I agree fully with your edited sentence, too. Thanks for adding that.

            BTW, how does one edit one’s posts? Is that reserved for certain people with authority to post? Many times I’ve wished I had the ability to edit a post, to correct errors.

          • SM, you can add and/or edit posts or comments if you are a member here. If you’d like to become one I can certainly add you here.

          • To be honest I’m not sure, perhaps satyam you could speak to this?

  16. @satyam
    >the only victim with that sort of response on your part is ‘reason’!

    Not at all. Quite the opposite actually, from your side.

    You claim to see a lot in SRK’s statements as riddled with sinister behaviour (becoming victim etc).
    I am reminded of Cowper in his fire at twilight,

    “Myself creating what I saw,”

  17. To all those saying that it is the BJP. SS supporters who added to the popularity of SRK, (in India and US) I have only this to say, that the apprehension I expressed was with that avatar of SRK who is preaching Islam in MNIK.

    The avatar of SRK as Raj which was made popular by all sections is irrelevant to my point.

    • I’d disagree Oldgold. Firstly this is why I dislike things being framed in this way, i.e. the audience that’s a BJP supporter (there are no Sena supporters that are very relevant to the equation nationally in India, even less so overseas.. just not that many of that target demographic) and another one that isn’t. People don’t go to the movies this way. Hollywood peddles the most liberal messages in film after film and red state America laps it up. Avatar is the latest example. Here’s a film that’s a thinly veiled commentary on the recent wars, on the environment, it valorizes the ‘native’, it celebrates a ‘pagan’ culture, on and on.. even the Vatican objects to its messages and yet this film is creating history. Just because someone supports the BJP doesn’t mean they’re fanatics who stop watching a film the moment they feel there’s a somewhat different political message being peddled. Shahrukh is not preaching Islam in MNIK. This too perverts the film. I don’t see why you have to continue looking at things this way. He’s a guy who’s being targeted at points in a post-9/11 US for being Muslim and I’m sure he has lines in the film that stress the fact that he’s just a normal mainstream Muslim who ought not to be treated with suspicion. This isn’t ‘preaching Islam’! Do you think Johar and SRK are in the movies for religious proselytization? And the fact of SRK’s identity is very germane to this discussion. People who are fanatical enough to reject movies because someone’s a Muslim in them and addresses some of the questions of his faith as part of the arc of the story are also those who would simply not patronize such an actor in the first place. Just because he plays Raj doesn’t mean anything. First of all he’s very regular as Raj/Rahul. There are no religious codes here, conservative family codes yes but judging by the reception the Pakistani audience overseas and in Pakistan (judging from what I’ve been told) has loved Raj/Rahul more than anything else. This is not a ‘Hindu’ representation in that deep ideological sense. Bollywood doesn’t do this in its mainstream films. If anything when it does the right usually gets a somewhat unfair deal (for example RDB). Even if I am hardly a person of the right I will accept this much. So the entire Bollywood apparatus even if it isn’t the Nehruvian one that once pervaded the scene is nonetheless a liberal-secular one. How in God’s name (pun intended) are the BJP supporters of India or overseas watching these films?! RDB made 2m in the US in 2006, a big number that year. By far the greatest funding for the BJP coffers comes from the US. How did that audience swallow a film where the right is represented as extreme and then repentant with Kulkarni’s character? One could multiply the examples. Again just because one is on the right does not imply that they’re zealots who just reject films without giving them a chance. But also why do you keep raising this question for MNIK? Did KANK not do well because of a Muslim angle? Did Ghajini do better than RNBDJ because the latter had a Muslim angle? Evidently those same types love patronizing a film like Fanaa where Aamir plays an unrepentant terrorist. LOL, audiences in GUjarat were actually unhappy when the film was banned in Gujarat. They all knew what it was about and still wanted to see it. It’s just inaccurate and wrong to look at audiences using such political categories. I do not agree with pretty much anything the right says but I have close friends and other acquaintances on the right for whom I would provide character certificates in the blink of an eye. if you are somehow anxious about MNIK’s box office fate and using this as an excuse that too is equally wrong.

      • LOL! :-D
        Was it necessary to add the last sentence?

        >if you are somehow anxious about MNIK’s box office fate and using this as an excuse that too is equally wrong.

        Did you need this ‘trump’ card to help your POV?
        Will this be used as a gagging weapon from now on by all the ‘antis’ to prevent any reasonable discussion where one is only expressing theoretical POV?

        Because theory it is.
        A poster says something, you have a point of rebuttal. and so it goes on.
        My post was a theoretical response to another post discussing ‘popularity of SRK’ and the scenario, and all I did was to show a marked difference in the two ‘forms’ of SRK being supported for popularity, where one may not be the kind they want to support.
        And I don’t think my view is far fetched.

        As for feeling anxious!!
        Being level headed, I’m not going to lose sleep over the earnings of a film from which I won’t get anything. ;-)
        I’ll be delighted if its likeable and sorry if its disappointing.

        • Oldgold, not at all but if you’re going to introduce this religious angle repeatedly for MNIK when counter-examples are repeatedly provided doubts do arise..

        • Rest Assured, the fate of MNIK BO is not to be disputed. A 100cr domestic and $10M foreign minm is baked in the cake. Rest depends on the merits of the movie.
          IMO, Aamir-SRK do not bring losing propositions to the table any more.

          • Nykavi: you are a brave man to make those bets. By the way consider how DMG grossed all of 3-3.5 crores! Also no non-Aamir film has really cleared the 40 crore range in terms of week 1 initial. To get to 100 crores MNIK needs minimally a 50 crore opening and trending better than LAK and APKGK. RNBDJ trended well but it again did not clear the 40 crore mark. As for the $10m mark consider that OSO made about 3.6m and most other big SRK films for years have remained in the 3-3.5m range. 3I ends up around 6.3 m or thereabouts. Both targets are I think pretty stiff. How is SRK in Aamir’s range anyway when he hasn’t had anything close to a Ghajini let alone a 3I? The model we should be looking at is VZ/KANK. Both ‘issues’ films. In the first instance the film did 45-50% of its gross in week 1 which was poor for its time. KANK faded dramatically after a strong week 1. In the first case no one hated the film but no one was particularly entertained either. In the second case many did hate the film. So with MNIK you need a film that opens at 50 crores (which means it excites the box office as much as Ghajini did.. without BOI additions!) and then trends like VZ (which is harder these days as many big films reveal). But this is the best case scenario. What if it’s less than this even if it’s not really a KANK? The point I’m trying to make is that with the subject before us and Johar directing what are the chances of it being a really entertaining film that will have real strong legs? I am skeptical! Unless the film really surprises us. Note that Johar himself seems rather more nervous than ever before. By the way unlike KANK or K3G there are no other stars here who can perform even a limited rescue on the entertainment quotient if the basic subject doesn’t. again I don’t have anything invested in MNIK not working but I am a bit puzzled as I have been many times before why one would put anyone in the same bracket as Aamir after Ghajini/3I back to back and all his other success in every kind of genre this decade (which SRK hardly has!). some years ago no one was willing to give Aamir the benefit of the doubt when he didn’t have the biggest grossers!

  18. Hard to judge a book by its cover. But, the promos of MNIK so far have been lacklustre to put it mildly. SRK fans have been putting on brave faces and have been trying to find positive things to say about the promos but it is obvious even they are a little nonplussed. SRK-Kajol jodi is suddenly the USP!
    I wouldnt rule out a very good BO performance but I do have an uneasy feeling about atleast its domestic BO prospects. Karan, Dont get excited. Domestic means India.

  19. I really dont discount SRK’s starpower at all.
    Actually, in India RBNDJ BO run got truncated by Ghajini. Otherwise I think it too wudve grossed over 90cr in India, and maybe if it had a couple of holidays, wudve gone over 95crs. It certainly wudnt hold a candle to Ghajini, but wudve still ended as 2nd best collections of the decade. Its underperformance in the US market was indeed worrisome, ie it did less than Ghajini overall, despite SRK in a bread-n-butter romantic role.

    Somehow I feel that there is enough of a buzz around MNIK to give it a 45cr+ opening week. After that it does depend on trending.

    I think that both Aamir and SRK are neck-to-neck. 3i is one of those outliers, the sort of tentpole ATBB which comes every decade, so I dont think we shud even be comparing any other film to it.

    • Nykavi: did Ghajini eat into RNBDJ’s initial as well? It actually opened relatively weak for a film of that kind on Fri. There is no instance of a film opening at or less than 40 crores and going upto 90-95 crores. None whatsoever. with or without competition. Not that it cannot happen. But since RNBDJ was hardly SRK’s most loved film, hardly a KKHH it’s odd that you would think it’s trending would actually surpass many of his own films that were liked far more!

    • Re: 3i is one of those outliers, the sort of tentpole ATBB which comes every decade, so I dont think we shud even be comparing any other film to it.

      Hope you are not serious. If you are not that is one ofthe most preposterous things I have seen.And believem e iHave seen a lot. It is like putting asie the most glaring piece of evidence because it is inconvenient or doesnt suit one’s narrative.
      Anyway Aamir has to oveertake the likes of Bobby Deol, Fardeen, Abhay Deol etc before one even can take his name in the same breath as SRK.

      • Rajen/Satyam
        There is no question that starting in 2006, Aamir had equalled SRK in magnitude of BO successes. Ghajini just proved to the naysayers what he was capable of.

        But let me explain what I mean wrt 3i. Since the early 90s, there have been just 3 historical ATBBs: HAHK, DDLJ and now 3i. SRK/Salman cudnt replicate DDLJ/HAHK, in fact no other movie cud do so until 3i. RH came close to those two but missed by at least double digit percentages.
        All these movies hit the bullseye in terms of bringing all sorts of repeat demographics to the theater. The business of these movies was like a tentpole, more than double of any contemporary movie around them in their time (though chronologically HAHK and DDLJ were so close to one another). It is very difficult to hit the middle of the Bell Curve that frequently. Its like Titanic cudnt be broken all these years, until Avatar came.
        One cannot just take these huge ATBBs and rank these stars based on those movies alone. For consistency they ought to have had other superhits. For eg, Rajiv Kapoor had a BB in RTGM, but never equalled even a small percentage of that business again. In fact, that was the case with Aamir after RH.
        Whereas SRK followed with KKHH and other movies, Aamir didnt quite set the BO on fire until after 2006.
        Thats why, I still feel, Aamir has pulled upto SRK in the last 5 yrs, and perhaps just beaten him by a bit. But I still wont negate SRK’s fanbase or BO impact, he can still surprise with a BB in MNIK.

        • But Aamir replicated and crossed his Ghajini within a year. When SRK equals Ghajini in terms of gross or even comes within striking age perhaps we can start taking a second look at your claim. Aamir though has already done it. Did you think a year ago that he would cross 115 crores?

          • We also have to factor in market expansion and increased printcounts. Aamir did a very wide release with Ghajini and went wider with 3i, quite succesfully obviously.
            RBNDJ was in fact not as widely released as Ghajini in India. SRK is trying doing so hugely with MNIK. It if sticks, it can surely come close to Ghajini or even surpass it.
            Its the question of bombarding prints all across the nation. But at this point, lesser stars cannot engage in the game of mega-wide releases. Akki has failed miserably with that strategy. HR has not even tried it, but will do so presumably with Kites.
            This strategy is surely going to separate the men from the boys. Unquestionably, Aamir is one up on everyone else in this game, lets see how the others fare.

        • Re: ” Its like Titanic cudnt be broken all these years, until Avatar came.”

          But the fact that these two films involve the same person — Cameron — much as Ghajini and 3 Idiots center on the same person — aamir khan — suggest that what we are talking about are not outliers but peaks that only one man has been able to reach among the contemporary stars. I do not suggest none of his contemporaries can reach it, but that is something to be proven, not assumed.

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