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I am saddened and very angry. Armed forces and Bollywood are India’s two most secular institutions. Mr. Anjum Rajabali and his ilk, in their obsession with Modi-hate have betrayed the film industry. I am sorry your appeal has obfuscated us more than enlightening.
I have few questions and I am sure you would like to answer to help me help India.
The real fight is between BJP and Congress. Both are corrupt and both use communal and caste politics. But atleast they govern. They are not afraid to take responsibility and brickbats.
If BJP comes to power, V.K.Singh will become defence minister and he will have the last laugh.
I am not talking about corruption in gujarat. Corruption at an all india level. With some congressmen joining BJP and Modi’s softness towards Pawar and Jayalalitha, it seems corruption is not an issue for them.
To become king, a person will do any thing. Just like aurangzeb, an austere man, killed his own siblings, put his own father in prison. Yes, no nepotism, no corruption but only hungry for power. Join hands with enemies, sacrifice friends.
aurangzeb… bjp and congress are same bla bla …ab kuch bacha nahi hai
modi and jayalalita are soft on each other and contesting has allready caused hearburn to congressi supporters as it negeted dmk and congress alliances..jaya was the one the first few who endorsed him as pm way back when nobody did …question to be asked why congress is soft on dmk after 2g
did chidambaram won his court case on election…why he had to run this time
You still talking of him? LOL: He made such a fool of himself with the supposed list he sent to all CM’s which was ONLY replied by Mamta. He had supposedly listed out points on which he asked if the states would carry out.
Well, there was a brief period of ‘honeymoon’ (?) where they praised each other, and Anna was all praise for her Rs15 sarees, and chappals and austere life. That he was fixing her to support Modi (put up by the bJP) was clear.
Anyway he invited her to set up candidates in Delhi belonging to her prty. Biswajeet was among the first to be chosen. Remember the actor? Yes, he. I think they hoped to challenge AAP and cut their votes, banking oin Anna.
Then a big rally was organised in Ramlila Grounds. He flew in from his home town. Got into his car. Drove to the grounds – only 2000 people and a whole lot of empty chairs.
He went back and left Mamta at the ‘altar’ sitting alone (I mean with the chamchas).
At irst excuses were given he’s unwell. Then it came out he was complaining that Mamta didn’t do things well. He had drawn thousands to the same ground. It was all her fault. So it all ended.
She went back and he went back.
Lately I heard he was giving support to some LS candidates for LS and AAP’s Medha Patkar is one.
VSingh left him to fight from Gaziabad on BJP ticket. It is rumoured Bedi will fight against AK for DElhi CM. Anyway she decalred her support to bJP a long time ago.
He refused to come and join AAP inspite o being asked many times in the beginning. The movement was IMO always a shadow BJPsupported and with AK forming his party it spoilt their plans.
I don’t feel one bit sorry for him being left alone. AK would have been the only loyal one if he hadn^started to feel jealous.
Even evms have a mind of their own, it seems. Dont worry. It will be fixed as no party will keep quiet.
Missing voters may not be all BJP voters. They might have voted for other parties too. It is Election Commission’s mistake which is an independent body.
Anna Hazare was helped by media and others. But the same media found a better man Kejriwal and started to promote him. Ultimately the media settled for Modi.
That is what media says. They like to think they made him.
They boycotted AAP for 9 months after AK spoke against Ambani early last year.
He is the only party leader who gave interviews without first ‘fixing’ it. No pre examined questions etc – and they loved interviewing him.
Mostly negative news on TV and newspapers – flats – slaps – eggs – ink – black flags – FIRs
Or debates on topics like ‘Has AAP lost the steam?
BUT no news of the huge spontaneous rallies in Punjab, the Sangrur one being 10Km long without any organising effort, which took everyone by surprise. So you had BDutt interviewing public in Amritsar about who they think they’d like to vote, and everytime anyone said AAP candidate she passed comments like ‘he has no chance’ ‘he’s not in the running at all’ .
As of today the media follows Modi because they HAVE to.
Ambani owns them all mostly.
Did you see that joke ‘Aap Ki Adalat’ with Modi? Shameless a”*ç+%=?&g.
There’s zero support for AAP on any media. No one is condemning the gunda threats in Varanasi where campaigning is not allowed by them. They come in hordes and shout like zombies modi modi modi modi…….
Candidates are being beaten up left right and centre one is in ICU. The media gives the news as if it was a jharap from both sides.
I could go on and on with these kinds of stories.
“Well, there was a brief period of ‘honeymoon’ (?) where they praised each other, and Anna was all praise for her Rs15 sarees, and chappals and austere life”— haha thanx for the entertaining anecdotes-didn’t know these entertaining anecdotes–btw how dya know this detail lol
Btw apparently heard Rahul caught modis ‘wife’—
Hmmm those who live in glass houses..
Where’s Rahuls Columbian girlfriend nowadays ?…
Well AAP has no media support nor the money to pay for ads and hoardings etc so they have started a whole lot of fb pages, some are official and a whole lot from supporters and that’s the only place I go to get news of AAP. I’ve stopped watching any channels live streamed on computer. So of course one gets a lot of news from the various links these fb pages provide.
people who are not politically aware can say anything but the thing is people like swamy have filed cases and questioned cases on evm and now things are coming out
question to be asked why ex election commission people got plum post and jobs and some are contesting as elections…these are facts
people are aware and know things
in delhi lot of people also voted for kejriwal for cm and modi for pm acknowledged by kejriwal saying them as minority
before anna hazare there was ramdev’s anshan and brutal attack on him by congress in delhi which damaged everything and nirbhaya was the last coffin with sheila’s comment
india against corruption founding members where anna hazare and kiran bedi and there have been groundword created for last 3 years and ya a delhi has realised there mistake with new foster child of congress which will be evident with lok sabha result
In Gurgaon more than 100 booths were compromised by BJP goons and the complaint has been lodged to EC and they have replied that they will look into it.
An Assam EVM sent votes to BJP. So BJP is not really such a victim in these polls. They have plenty of clout. I’m expecting rigging by them in Varanasi.
early morning voters, including many senior citizens, were bewildered when an electronic voting machine (EVM) reportedly “transferred” all votes to the Congress.
The incident happened at a polling booth at Shamrao Kalmadi School in the city when voters found that whichever button was pressed on the EVM, only the Congress light blinked.
Some of the alert voters brought this to the notice of the election officials who stopped voting immediately.
“The Election Commission authorities have ordered a new machine for this particular polling booth which is expected to come soon,” said local BJP activist Madhur Sahasrabuddhe.
The poll panel has also decided to permit around 28 voters who had already cas
(why this became true) when it was supposed to be rant just like how main stream media was laughing and ridiculing the same pesron when he was filing 2g cases and said time and again it would be a big loot
At Mewat in Gurgaon dist., Haryana, voting was a total farce, with haryanvi thondas/bullys managing to let all votes fall into bjp hands. Check out on google.
awww, LS did has no comment on the English speaking gunda Mani Shankar who wants to topple ( yes topple) the democratically elected Govt. or for the other sophisticated Shahshi Tharoor whose wife was found dead in mysterious circumstances…
but that is all O.K., they are not Ganwaars like Modi or his supporters na !!
So predictable ………………..
LS, please also google the hate speech of Yogi Yadav, where he said that in a Muslim Ilaka kee Desh mein aag lag jaayegee..
also please google that Keju refused to chant Vande Matram and Bharat mata kee jai in front of Muslms..
But then, people like you probably agree with all this anyways…
tcommies are like NYT and other western publications- Godhra – no one knows who killed the passengers- lekin yeh Pucca hai kee Gujrat mein Muslims ko Modi ney maara hai…Bhaag saala !!
Can you imagine the outrage that would have ensued if a publisher with a right-of-centre ideological bent had dared do what Navayana did to an author who criticised Modi or wrote something that would have got khakhi knickers all a-twist? The muted criticism of Navayana is almost akin to deafening silence, in contrast.
Instead, there are too-clever-by-half attempts at sophistry, drawing distinctions between right wing and left wing intimidation. What happened to Wendy Doniger’s book was censorship, we are told; this is only a publisher exercising his right to freedom to publish only certain kinds of authors. So, here is a publisher saying his decision to publish a book will be determined not by its contents but by the political views of its author. That’s not censorship? Anand is not a left-wing Dinanath Batra, the self-appointed guardian of Hindu history? Seriously? http://www.firstpost.com/blogs/navyana-controversy-why-lefts-intellectual-bullying-wont-work-now-1487389.html
I am interested about Sharad Pawar and his games. Mamata Banerjee, PDP and Jayalalitha.
And Modi’s emissaries alleged meeting with Geelani and approaching Bismillah Khan’s family for support or whatever. While they talk about appeasement, they dont mind it if it helps them.
The ads on tv scream vote for modi, not vote for BJP. Once modi gets the power and control, there will be scramble for crumbs.
Long live the King while the Party is comatose.
While Giriraj singh and Pravin Togadiya are spoiling the party by their statements.
Will the real BJP stand upto this personality cult which is reaching monstrous proportions? Or they are happy with the crumbs?
Till yesterday the so called real BJP was communal for the elite , ab uskee bahut yaad aa rahee hai….
Modi said in Aap kee Adalat- Jisney mijhe banaya ussko main kya bannoonga, he said at ANI- kya bachcha kabhee Maa sey bada ho sakta hai ?
lekinn kuch logo ko yeh baat samajh nahee aayegee…
Bhago Bhagodey key peechey !!!
and the fact that Modi has made Togadiya insignificant for so long is not mentioned by Libtards,
some tweets-
Vijay @centerofright · 13h
Interesting that libtards who supported Togadia during Guj Elxns in 2012 as he opposed Modi now using his stmts 🙂
Barbarian Indian @barbarindian · 1h
I see no difference between Prof. Varshney/ Ram Guha and Togadia – language/ semantics aside
rupa subramanya @rupasubramanya · Apr 20
Masood(INC) threatens to cut Modi into pieces: Reax:not speaking for INC.Yet with Giriraj Singh (BJP):Reax: everyone in BJP crazy like him.
Its Joy to see tragic public meltdown of left liberals and sickulars from Eminent Distorian Ram Guha to rabid souls like Ranna Ayub, Mihir and list is endless and few here also…..
I guess you want to know about Varanasi? In laws say Modi will win easily. I have been observing elections from here which is far from ground. But with advent of twitter, facebook these elections are more quarrelsome. My facebook feed is filled with pro Modi and pro AAP people. I rarely find a congress supporters. If there are, they have become supporter of other parties.
Naa…I wanted to know about this – LOL!!
In fact, there are two second-generation Indian-American candidates — Khanna and Republican Vanila Singh — running to unseat longtime incumbent Congressman Mike Honda, a third-generation Japanese-American, in California’s 17th District, which sits in the heart of the Silicon Valley. It’s one of only two districts in the country where Asian-Americans make up the majority. The other’s in Hawaii http://www.npr.org/blogs/codeswitch/2014/04/21/299055627/in-asian-majority-district-house-race-divides-calif-voters
It will be BJP, UPA or third front. But Sharad Pawar will be the constant factor in any of these governments. He will always belong to the ruling party.
She’s being reprimanded by the party for this – don’t worry.
This is neither a hate speech like so many recently BJP goons, nor is it of appeasement. She should choose her words carefully. Too immature and stupid for my liking. But yes BJP is trying its best to make it look like some big issue and divert the heat from its own hate communal speeches on to AAP.
“This is neither a hate speech like so many recently BJP goons, nor is it of appeasement. ”
I too would like to buy a pair of your rose-tinted glasses. You have succinctly demonstrated the typical AAP koolaid drinker, point fingers at everyone else, but will never accept blame.
Maana hain AAP behud haseen,
Lekin bure hum bhi nahi.
Shazia was immature and silly, not ironical and funny. One can afford to speak in this ironical manner when in private, but not at an event that’s being video recorded. Irresponsible of her. But she certainly isn’t anywhere near the tone of many virulent and scary bjp speechmakers.
LOL!!
Immature? she is a Journalist..
Why did Keju refuse to sing Vande Matram and Bharat Mata kee Jai in front of Muslims ???
This is the real face of PAAP…..
hats off to muslim guy who uploaded it… and so called gawars give certain facts to brain dead zombies:
why her brother is in bjp..why yogendra yadav says “muslim ilako main aag lag jayegi”
who said “batla house encounter was fake” – arvind kejriwal
ec(election commission during delhi election give warning to certain aap for distributing pamphlates in muslim areas)
whose communities leaders ask for tactical votes in friday night sermons ever thought why these so called secularists go for religious leader to ask for votes
The problem with liberals is that they feel their cause ( in this case defeating Modi ) is so great that every inconvinient truth can be twisted, every lie by Congress/AAP can be condoned. They are a victim of their stance. Once adopted every reality has to be twisted to justify and protect that stance.
Have seen the same happening in US. It is a position based on ideology but the truth is often the victim.
Priyanka Vadra defending Vadra is pathetic. Why she thinks Vadra’s land deals are not important? She looked like a hurt child than a mature politician.
Shazia Ilmi has shamed AAP with others like Kumar Vishwas. She embarrassed muslims who vehemently opposed her views.
BJP complaining about St.Xavier’s Principal. If he praised the gujarat model, would they have criticised him and complained against him?
wah…….
Kiran Bedi @thekiranbedi · 1h
Dr Frazer,Principal St Xavier is member of a Steering Committee of Planning Commission+Member of Committee for Defence of Teesta Setalvad
I am now 100 % sure that PAAP consists of the following- intellectual Muslims,( coz they can’t vote for SP), all out of work and out of relevance Commies ( since the Left Front is immaterial now) , Ex Congressis, and some idiots like – Duniya peetal kee, main baby doll soney kee !!!!
desh todney mein lagey hue hain !!
pathetic !!
I think the writing is on the wall.
All baby dolls can do is whine about Modi, misrepresent and twist facts, dig up uncomplimentary stories in media about him written by baby dolls and then threated to leave the country if Modi is elected!
There is no shortage of people like this bitch and these kind of contrarian ideologies are lapped up by so called intellectuals. These kind of ‘literary’ works reek of sensationalism and oppurtunism and give freedom of speech a bad rep. One can write alternative histories to all religions
Including Islam and Christianity to sell a few copies. The same intellectuals who criticise Jerry Falwell for his diatribe against Islamic leaders lap up the kind of shit served up by this person. Talk about double standars!
Have you not seen the enormous, angry backlash to David Cameron calling the UK a Christian country? Have you never read books that apply the same method of Freudian psychology-analysis that Doniger uses to Christian theology? Have you never seen satire of the more conservative, deeply Christian views that is so widespread in Western media (e.g. the musical Book of Mormon or the film Chocolat)?
The global left in no way selectively questions/ criticises/ analyses Hinduism alone, nor is it only in India that secularism is considered an important ideal; I don’t understand why so many Indian right-wingers like to pretend that Hinduism is the only religion that faces these challenges (some even go so far as to accuse the Jewish Doniger of being a Christian missionary!).
And ‘sensationalism and opportunism’? This women lived in academic obscurity until the protests against her book brought her enormous fame! I personally consider psycho-analysis to be perhaps the most puerile field of academia, but I certainly don’t think that this book deserves to be pulped for this reason. In the same vein, you could call for Freud’s books themselves to be pulped because he impinges upon the idea of pure motherhood that so many people hold so dear!
If you consider something to be Holy (be it Scientology, Christianity, Buddhism, Hinduism or Rajnikanth), that is your choice. It is not the duty of others to treat it with the same reverence just because you do. That modern-day Islamic culture generally prohibits people from questioning the religion in a healthy and democratic manner is something to be denounced, not something for other religions to seek to emulate!
Some historical facts for all those who seem to think there is a double standard at work and psychoanalysis in applied to Hinduism alone while other religions are glorified! 😉 http://www.historyguide.org/europe/lecture3.html
For the record, I am against desecration of any Holy book, be it Quran,Bible or Bhagwad Gita. Nothing good or constructive comes out of it.criticizing a religion without being part of it is just not done and any Indian who objects to misrepresentation of their ideology is not a right winger. These labels are so carelessly thrown about. Being firm and confident is mot right wing and meither is being wishy washy liberalism. Not everything said by Freud has to be held in high regard. I happen to disagree with a lot he has said.Dongier’s criticism is directed at main stream Hinduism and not some far out ideology.
You certainly don’t need to hold Freud in high regard (I don’t hold him in any regard whatsoever!) but that is the whole point of freedom of speech: you can disagree with someone and yet not condone their books being pulped.
And I did not say that any Indian who objects to Doniger so a right-winger, I was referring to the specific people who accused her of ‘Christian missionary zeal’ despite her being a Jew and they were right-wingers. As for carelessly throwing labels about, I’m pretty sure that bitch, baby doll, libtard etc are all far more derogatory than right-winger! 😛
But it’s not a contrarian ideology to show that the historical record reveals things that run contrary to popular belief. This happens with every religion and every group is as offended! The scholarship doesn’t speak to ‘belief’ though, it speaks to what is verifiable or what is likely to have happened or not happened. To insist that the only legitimate conversation on religion can only be had by those who believe creates a problem. For one the believers themselves very often believe very different things about the same religion. But leaving this aside it would be a bit like saying that one shouldn’t believe in the Big Bang because some or many Muslims, some or many Christians are offended by it. The same holds for non-religious beliefs as well. There are lots of beliefs surrounding nations and races and ethnicities and what not. if we refuse to accept principles of verifiability then we are more or less saying ‘anything goes’ in which case the Klan member could easily say that America was always meant to be a nation for Christian Whites and that this notion has been perverted over time and that anyone saying otherwise is simply being contrarian. Does a Muslim doctor operate on a patient following his medical training or does he simply follow a belief on what might be wrong with the patient? Why is that body of knowledge or that science acceptable but not the kind that subjects other walks of human life to similar inquiry? The irony here is that people like Doniger are arguing against precisely the colonial perspectives that have defined something like ‘Hinduism’ (which of course is not a ‘religion’, this too is a colonial construct, inventing this ‘ism’.. so anything that wasn’t monotheistic could be rendered uniform or as part of the same belief system.. insisting that everything is religion is to reduce the richness of Hindu belief in all its diversity because one then recasts it as a primitive stage of religion before monotheism.. for me whether one believes in Zeus or Allah it is exactly the same thing.. and I don’t intend anything condescending by this.. both should be taken equally seriously as expressions of belief..). It is of course true that much that the historical record reveals isn’t exactly comforting for the believer. But this is always the case. If you believe the sun is a god you’re not quite happy to discover it is just some kind of star with no life of any kind. If you believe God creates humans in Eden out of dust you’re not quite pleased to discover ancestral apes let alone a human embryo that in different stages reveals links to fish and reptiles! Now it is of course true that science and history have been employed for ideological reasons. To service colonialism or the worst kinds of social darwinism and so on. But this is an argument to discriminate, not to dismiss everyone , certainly not someone who’s one of the world’s foremost Sanskrit scholars and who has spent a lifetime with ancient Indian texts (she cannot be compared with Falwell because no serious scholar of Christianity considers Falwell anything but ridiculous if not despicable). A culture that produced the kamasutra couldn’t just have been one (if at all) that fulfills the imaginary created by Sooraj Barjatya! But again these are questions of verifiability. I don’t have a problem with anyone who believes that Moses split the Red Sea. In fact if one is a good reader of the Bible one must believe this at some level. However if one is then asked if the Red Sea was actually split by Moses as a verifiable scientific fact the answer has to be in the negative. Both things can be true even if these might seem contradictory. for me at least when I’m reading the Bible I am just in a different frame of reference than when I am examining the same as a question of history. So this is just a general point. But even if one sticks to believe there is the thorny problem of things that people believe within a faith that are contradictory. There is the equally problematic one of what different faiths believe. So for instance you have different creation stories around the world. All of them cannot be true because they are very different in many cases. Each believer believes that his or her version is the correct one. One cannot relativize things here and say these are different ways of accessing the divine because within each construct such relativism is not accepted. So even within belief there are lots of problems. But once again for me the cosmic battles of the Mahabharata or the extraordinary hymns of the Rg Veda are a way of experience. I don’t particularly care whether they stand the test of history or not. But if I am within the realm of history I am hardly willing to swear that Krishna offered that advice to Arjuna. To deliver what is valuable about all such human inquiry into the hands of fanatics or religious ideologues is I think a grave mistake. Because this is what one does when one follows this kind of argument. I always quote Dev in these contexts. It is precisely a certain mainstream Hinduism that needs to be defended. Why accept this blackmail by the Hindutva type that its either their re-definition of faith or its nothing. This is exactly the move fanatical Islamists or Christian fundamentalists perform. Or for that matter the equivalent in any other faith. Religious or political. These examples could be multiplied. I don’t of course believe you are arguing for all of this because I know you enough. But I am nonetheless laying this out because the drift of your argument is I think a dangerous one.
Here are the facts. Wendy Doniger’s book was published in India by Penguin five years ago. It met with a hostile reception and its contents were contested by several writers well-versed with Hindu texts and Sanskrit. Even the most casual reading of the book would show that the ‘alternative history’ that Wendy Doniger peddles is so much bunk and no more. For all her scholarship, her interpretation of text and tradition, her understanding of the finer nuances of Sanskrit, come across as amazing shallow in this book.
Critics of ‘The Hindus: An Alternative History’ have argued, and not without reason, that the book was crafted to intentionally pour scorn on Hinduism; to titillate those who feel it is obligatory, either for reasons of ideology or faith if not both, to denigrate Hinduism; to use the papier mâché mask of scholarship to mock at Hindus for worshipping gods and goddesses who are portrayed as high on Viagra.
It could be entirely coincidental, but what Wendy Doniger has to say about Hindus and Hinduism bears remarkable similarity with the salacious, slanderous contents of lesser pamphlets used by pastors sponsored by foreign evangelists who run a multi-billion-dollar trans-national business of harvesting souls. For evidence, compare Wendy Doniger’s slickly produced ‘The Hindus’ with Pastor MG Matthew’s shabbily printed ‘Haqeeqat’. I would desist from quoting either of the authors because that would amount to giving undue publicity to scurrilous comments aimed at demeaning Hindus and defaming their faith. The similarity does not necessarily suggest a larger conspiracy, not the least because Wendy Doniger, I am told, is not a Bible-thumping Christian but a secular Jew
This is a rag of an opinion piece. One you’ve quoted before. Of course online one can find opinion pieces supporting any view one likes. In the US every last one of those BJP supporters (the biggest NRI financiers of the party) would choose Harvard over Benaras University if it came to such a choice. In fact none of them would even consider this a reasonable choice. Forget the latter, I doubt they would prefer any Indian university over Harvard. Yes that same Harvard which produces incredibly shoddy scholars each generation, one of which is Wendy Doniger with her summa cum laude in Sanskrit. But maybe Kanchan Gupta knows more.
As for the Rushdie affair that was a disgustingly cynical decision on Rajiv Gandhi’s part. of course from ordinary Muslims to Mullahs you heard the same arguments. People are out to insult the faith, Rushdie doesn’t know what he’s talking about (actually one of his tripos subjects at Cambridge was Islamic history and so he did know what he was talking about), so on and so forth. In each case this is the reaction of those who simply find the truth inconvenient.
And here the word ‘alternative’ should be defined because it seems to create a lot of confusion. Doniger’s ‘alternative’ history or similar efforts along the same lines are not fictions. These works are about highlighting aspects of a tradition that might have been previously repressed or forgotten. It happens all the time in historical writing of every kind. Someone who writes an alternative history of the United States isn’t making things up! How would this work? If the common view is about the US being this great experiment in democracy and about the spread of freedom and Enlightenment values and about being the ultimate immigrant melting-pot and so on the alternative history might remind us of how the United States has also been about a Native-American genocide or a history of slavery or an awful history of racial segregation even after slavery was officially ended or about an imperial land-grab or about each new immigrant group facing violence and hostility from an older one (Gangs of New York anyone?) and so forth. The first version is simply a romantic one. The second one complicates things. it does not resemble the United States of an politician’s speech, left or right. It is a history that is constantly denied or evaded. But this alternative history is absolutely real. It is not something a scholar dreams up. Of course it could be that there is a vast conspiracy afoot within the American academia to ridicule the US. Who knows?
I have read the book and I found it to be obnoxious and academically sub-standard. I think those who criticise Penguin (to be referred as TWCP from this point onwards), should also talk about the merit of what Doniger has written. But then it would mean having to read the book I guess.
Wendy Doniger is not in a low-level position in the academic ladder. In fact, in many ways, she is considered to be a sort of queen bee as far as ‘Hindu studies’ are concerned. So one would expect she would use her freedom with responsibility. One would also expect that a person in her position would have a certain amount of empathy of the subject that she is dealing with. Otherwise, by definition, she would be writing in a manner that would not bring out the true essence of Hinduism.
TWCP make the following essential points:
» The book is good representation of what Hinduism is. After all, the author is a ‘reputed scholar’.
» Even if it is not, the author has every right to write what he/she did, and the issue is one of free speech.
» What an author writes, could well be one of the many representation of what Hinduism is.
» If one disagrees with the book, the right approach is to write a book in refutation.
» The petitioner has no real academic qualifications to dispute what is written.
» The petition is another example of growing intolerance within Hinduism.
» Such protests will diminish Hinduism
Wendy Doniger has been criticised by many people for her writings. Even on the book on question, there have been detailed analyses of not just the factual errors, but also interpretations which the Hindus would not be able to relate to. She has also been asked to come to programmes organised by those critical to her writings, so that she is given an opportunity to give her perspective. She has always declined such opportunities.
It is not only the present Wendy Doniger book that has been critiqued by Hindus in a professional way. However, in each case, these critiques are not in suggested readings list. In fact, there is a claim that if they are mentioned by a student in their papers, their grades suffer. So much for academic freedom.
The problem for TWCP is that the internet and social media has widened the avenues for people to get to know different perspectives on all the issues that concern them. Also, TWCP are now finding that the people at large are better relating to the non-mainstream academics who are criticising the so far standard version of teaching what Hinduism is all about.
a court case with academic scholars on view and penguin chickened out unable to defend
(What adds to their discomfort is the inconvenient fact that neither the state nor the court has banned the book; it was Penguin Books that discovered that Brand Chicago has no immunity in the face of academic challenge and should not be taken at face value in future. The publisher apologetically averred that “it respects all religions worldwide,” which is a tacit admission that the book was derogatory to Hindus and their divinities.)
Of course, they fell silent when Abhishek Manu Singhvi sent a legal notice to Spanish author Javier Moro on grounds that his book, El Sari Rojo (The Red Sari), on Sonia Gandhi amounted to “exploiting somebody’s privacy for personal commercial gains”. Interestingly, neither the Congress president nor vice-president, both of whom rushed to speak out against the Supreme Court verdict upholding the legality of Section 377 on homosexuality, have commented on the withdrawal of Wendy Doniger’s insulting portrayal of Hindu civilisation and its respected divinities.
if this is opinion piece(facts which can be verified easily by anyone) and rebuked if one has abiility if so is case btw what would call certain verbose based on myth…again an opinion only
on rushdie rant surprisingly the same penguin was publisher(fyi) and didn’t chickened out because there where fatwas not counterarguments invitation and case on law….again no way comparable just like u.s and indian set up are not
this is why it is important to be precise. The Satanic Verses was banned by Rajiv Gandhi using a Custom Act provision which allows the govt to prohibit import of a work if it judges it to be a threat to ‘security’. of course this is a sham argument but given the demonstration and the nonsense the mullahs were stirring up it was easy for the govt to exploit this provision. check out a recent piece on what this ban means:
the Doniger book on the other hand relies on a completely different provision. Which itself is terrible law but the point here is more or less that if anyone’s feelings are hurt a case can be made (what if the Ramayana or the Koran hurts my feelings?!). So it’s not the same law that was relied on in each case. The problem with the Satanic Verses ban was that the book was thrown into a kind of limbo where technically only the ‘import’ was banned. The correct response in any case is that both were wrong, not that since this was done to the Satanic Verses it’s ok to do it to Doniger. And this is the classic example of bad faith on the Right. In each and every case the alibi provided is on the left. In other words ‘hey they did it too’. But if one found the original thing bad one shouldn’t defend it when it happens in one’s court using the earlier bad example.
In any case the Right has been utterly foolish here. No one had heard of the Doniger book except among scholars or a serious reading public. By making such a big deal out of it the book started getting downloaded all over India, it shot up the Amazon ranks and so forth. In effect it became precisely something that interested a popular audience! This is called shooting yourself in the foot! Much as Khomeini made the Satanic Verses more famous that it ever would have been otherwise!
gangs of new york doesn’t deal with slavery as such(villain and hero both where white) infact it was class war based on revenge ironically among butchers and elite no wonder kashyap indianised it on digferent level with gang of waseeypur
Recall how the Government headed by Rajiv Gandhi had imposed a ban on Salman Rushdie’s novel, The Satanic Verses, even before bonfires were made of copies of the book in Bradford by Muslim immigrants who would be hard put to read it cover to cover. While Iran came to the world’s notice with Ayatollah Khomeini issuing a fatwa sanctioning Rushdie’s murder, India came to enjoy the dubious distinction of becoming the first country to ban The Satanic Verses. Now contrast these responses with the reaction of the British Government. Mrs Margaret Thatcher, who was then Prime Minister, not only defended Rushdie and took on Iran’s mullah brigade but also ordered full protection for the author, including arranging for safe houses for him. And all this despite the fact that Rushdie was among the strongest and most outspoken critics of Mrs Thatcher, rarely if ever missing an opportunity to offend her and her Conservative Government’s policies. Compare that to a cussed Government of India refusing to issue a visa to Rushdie; he had to wait till 1998 when Mr Jaswant Singh, as Minister for External Affairs, struck down the dumb ‘policy’ that prevented a person to visit the country of his origin simply because he had offended those who hadn’t even read The Satanic Verses, including the Left-liberal commentariat. – See more at: http://www.deeshaa.org/2011/06/19/kanchan-gupta-the-sterile-debate-over-free-speech/#sthash.9YVUKTiD.dpuf
Periyar used to beat hindu idols with chappals while not touching other religions. The miniscule brahmin community helplessly raged against this blasphemy. Periyar was fighting for social justice and he used this crude way while ambedkar tried to bring about changes by embracing Buddhism.
In andhra pradesh, there was one famous author called Ranganayakamma who wrote Ramayana Vishavriksham and it was not banned.
Most of the anger was directed at brahmins and the OBC castes in the south did not mind it most of the time.
The brahmin influence has waned considerably and even Modi prides himself being an OBC and empathises with them.
Most of the brahmins have become atheists and cosmopolitan while ironically it is a big section of the OBCs who have become strident defenders of hinduism.
In this respect, the Shivsena and MNS do not discriminate maharashtrians on their caste basis. That is the reason for their never decreasing vote share in maharashtra. Same case in gujarat too.
“In the US every last one of those BJP supporters (the biggest NRI financiers of the party) would choose Harvard over Benaras University if it came to such a choice. In fact none of them would even consider this a reasonable choice. Forget the latter, I doubt they would prefer any Indian university over Harvard. Yes that same Harvard which produces incredibly shoddy scholars each generation, one of which is Wendy Doniger with her summa cum laude in Sanskrit. But maybe Kanchan Gupta knows more. ”
SO well said Satyam! I find it utterly hypocritical that the same class of Indians who rever education and worship at the altar of the Ivy League would pour so much scorn upon Western-educated intellectuals. Honestly, I would be surprised if even one of these NRIs/ educated upper-middle class Indians would not be elated if their child was to secure admission to Havard/ Yale/ Princeton/ Oxford/ Cambridge!
And how many of these self-appointed guardians of culture would actually encourage their children to study a subject like Sanskrit or Theology at University, or to pursue a career in art history/ architecural conservation at sacred Hindu sites instead of pursuing the corporate holy grail of Goldman Sachs/ McKinsey/ Microsoft etc? Not many, I’d wager. (I’m talking here not about the Kanchan Guptas and the Dinesh Batras, but about the average NRI/ Upper-middle class supporter of their ideology).
again not relevent but should be answered in same way
question to be asked why these great saints unable to defend themselves and there so called gospel
why people has to scorn over indians in frustration they are holier though..aren’t these saints also doing business with cheap labor and industrial set up and earning profit
what is wrong in defending one own if one has ability
Sanskrit or Theology is not fianancial but cultural and spiritual matter(how many in these companies get job by studyin bible) because its not related to job but alot of americans in the same way are studying mandarin and indian languages
if one concentrate on content rather than rubbish and personal stuff he will surely come up with something substantial and personal stuff is always the last resort of someone who has nothing to say or even comprehend
wow, what argument…..all the commies like Jyoti Basu enjoyed their Scotch in air conditioned homes every day, and talked about communism, loads of News traders write about Gujrat without ever visiting Gujrat is Ok for everyone, but how dare a NRI Hindu speak for Hindus ?
Who the hell made this argument?! It’s not my fault if you construct prepostorous strawmen positions and attribute them to me! I ado not sympathize with communists, regardless of their choice of beverage.
And it’s not my fault if you choose to spectacularly misinterpret what I said. I never said than an NRI should not speak for Hindus. Perhaps if you actually read my comment, you’ll see that.
I read, understood it very well, it is my interpretation, you can dispute it just as Batra was disputing Wendy’s by legal means, lekin commies ko mirchi lag gayee kyon ???
Do not keep changing the terms of debate: the point is that your analogy between my objection to your comment and Batra’s actions is flawed. And deleting something on your blog is very different from pulping a book that was present in the public
domain, as I am sure you are intelligent enough to recognize.
And seriously Rocky, if you support the pulping of this book, where would you draw the line? Revoking Vishwaroopam because it hurt Muslim sentiments? Pulping the Da Vinci Code because it hurt Christian sentiments? Banning those who accused Doniger of being a Christian missionary because it hurt her Jewish sentiments? Revoking Chennai Express because it offends South Indian sentiments?
yeah using this logic every Mullah who can read the Koran in Arabic should be considered on par with actual scholars of the language. Of course the Mullahs make the very same claims. ‘What does ‘x’ [scholar at Harvard or Oxford or Berlin or wherever] know about Arabic?’ or ‘what does ‘y’ know about the Koran? he is not even a believer’.
The problem is people are usually more interested in feeding their own biases. Notice how the ‘both are wrong’ option is never accepted. So people always have this ‘if x did it why can’t y?’ logic because they want to use the screen of the other to justify their own excesses. But this insistence on a prior act of excess or violence is always a suspect one. First of all it leads almost to an infinite regress. Every group can [and does] always rely on a previous cycle of violence or excess (months old or centuries old) to authorize its present excess/violence. One never gets out of a cycle this way and one doesn’t even wish to get out of it. Here a psychoanalytic insight is important — we always wish to do things to the other in some deep-rooted sense, we hate the ‘neighbor’ as it were and the empirical evidence (they first killed us) is the excuse to engage in what we always wished to do anyway. So take the Hey Raam example. The tailor there probably had a thing for Rani Mukherjee anyway but the riot provided him the excuse to rape her. But he could always justify the rape by saying that some Hindi somewhere raped some other Muslim. I’ve been having these debates for years and the one thing I’ve consistently noticed is that that ‘both are wrong’ option is never chosen. At most people will say ‘you’re [Satyam] different, we’re not talking about you’ and then move back to the same old position. It is about the left bogeyman in the media, the ‘commies’ (the only country in the world where this world still has some relevance!) and so forth. There is always an ‘alibi’. One is always only responding to something else which of course absolves one entirely of the responsibility to condemn what is indefensible. Because one always pretends to be talking about something else. Obama had a shrewd rhetorical move in many of the debates the first time he ran where he would tell his opponent when challenged on something that ‘we can have that debate but right now I’m talking about…’. So there was always a deferral. ‘We can have that debate’. Well actually why aren’t you having that debate since come to think of it this is a formal debate?! We are at that debate! Similarly there is rhetorical strategy of saying more or less ‘before we talk about Modi or anything else let’s talk about the biased Outlook guys and what Rajiv Gandhi did’ etc etc. One never gets to that part where Modi has to be judged because one is forever judging others who are somehow being unfair to modi or the right. Similarly with this Doniger case suddenly it’s all about other books that were or were not banned. It’s never about what actually happened. Again how hard is it to say that any banning is wrong and if this wa done earlier that doesn’t make the Doniger banning right? But once again it’s always about biased commentators and what not. Why? Because one really likes the Doniger banning. one doesn’t want that sort of freedom of expression one pretends to be far. Which is why if the US is invoked too much there’s immediately the ‘things are different in India’ excuse. Well why were you pretending to have this great democracy otherwise?! Indeed there are important distinctions but surely the democratic ideals are similar? It’s the game Israel plays. On the one hand they say they’re the only Mideast democracy and so on. Alright fair enough. But then you criticize them for their treatment of prisoners or the Occupation and their prompt response is ‘look at what happens in Saudi Arabia’!
If one wants a Hindu India which is more or less the mirror image of Islamic Pakistan where one has a very restrictive notion of democracy where people formally vote but their freedoms are increasingly curtailed otherwise, most often in the name of religion, and where minorities have minimal rights if any, one should come out and say it. I noticed the other day a piece where many in Pakistan seem to have a rather sanguine view about Modi’s election. Somehow they were never as sanguine about any Congress govt. Isn’t there something odd here? But not really. Nothing would make many in pakistan happier than an absolute confirmation of the two-nation theory. And nothing would make the Hindutva brigade happier also who’ve always felt that Muslims got what they wished with Pakistan and meanwhile they got the Nehruvian raw deal of the secular state! Both sides really agree here. Even some influentials mullahs in Pakistan have said that Modi should be fine. Surely something more than a little fishy here!
And so from the Doniger case to Modi and so on it’s all part of the same spectrum of opinion and argument.
on to kanchan gupta don’t worry he know something not for nothing mms government and mms government tried to ban his twit handle with failed repercussion and backlash
HAHAHAHA! So Kanchan Gupta’s ‘knowledge’ of Sanskrit is proven because you claim the MMS tried to ban his twitter handle (what a bizarre and tenous link!), but Doniger’s Summa Cum Laude in Sanskrit from Harvard is not sufficient proof of her knowledge? HILARIOUS!
shows your lack of knowledge and general comprehension skill..
it was due to his political writing (kanchan’s) but doniger and penguin where scared to come upfront with genuine sanskrit scholars in public and lost case with them which is a fact
Absurd is when Modi says “Ganga maa ney Bulaya hai” and western media prints it as “I am the chosen one by God”….
but Shahsi Tharoor and Wendy influenced people would not see the difference issliye jaane do…
The most Intolerant and extreme fundamentalists are so called Liberals…. Only their narrative is true. Only they know the language. Only they control levers of power. Only they have freedom of Speech and only their IOI is true…
Last few weeks have been so great to see such tragic pathetic meltdown of so called liberals…
Wait and watch how ‘liberals’ will come up with new fear mongering, conjectures from their @@@.
SM is filled with their meltdown and seeing here also…
But I am loving it 😀
ps : Aaj kal so called liberals ko thodi si ungli karo toh woh roonaiy lagte hain… They will write 4000 words but w/o any meaning.. Thats’s always been trademark of left liberals/commies… Write gibberish and echo chamber will endorse it..
Penguin withdrawal is being misunderstood. It was a case of risk management. They understood that the particular law being used did not apply, but their action, withdrawal, REFLECTS the lack of faith in Indian Judicial System. Plus they felt that win or lose, their employees in India with be exposed to the potential street justice. Hence like any responsible corporation, they withdrew.
Those that claim that Wendy’s book has been “trashed by scholars”, should know that even the “trashing of these so called scholars” has been “trashed by other academic scholars”.
I personally did not find anything in the book which was new to me. As an NRI I had all of this from multiple Indian Scholars too.
I also felt that it appears that most resistance is based not on the merit of Wendy’s scholarship or writing BUT on the fact that she is not an Indian / Hindu. Take the issue about Swami Vivekananda, his position on “meat” is well documented YET Batra (for example) finds it objectionable. Why ? Because these facts are hurtful. Now if these statements were sourced from a hate monger or from a dubious source, I can still understand. I “can” understand disallowing unproven, dubious facts from hate mongers in the interest people’s sensitivity . But protesting well known facts is definitely not Kosher.
Penguin did fight the case for quite some time but legally they had no choice beyond a point. Because the way the statute is written it’s very hard to win such a case. And this is precisely the problem. A law that invites such responses, that is written to police freedom of expression using these sham excuses of feelings being hurt and what not. There would be no art or scholarship in human history if we used this standard in every case!
Interestingly Doniger is coming out with some Hindu texts in a 4000 page anthology (out later this year) which also includes texts from other important religions and where she says with some humor that people will be very upset with some of these writings even though these are original sources. Again this is common to every faith. You show people certain sources from Islam or Christianity or whatever and they get upset. Because orthodox belief is always about blotting out certain aspects of the tradition. This is what people then follow. For them this is the only faith. Quite naturally they’re in for a rude shock when one day they discover other sources. And again this happens not just at the level of religion but also at the level of politics and so forth.
In approx 325 AD, Christianities (plural) united into a “sort of” single Christian (singular) doctrine at the Council of Nicea. Those that disagreed with this post Council of Nicea view of Christianity were condemned as heretics and shunned.
I think today, India/Hinduism is witnessing a similar attempt. Except a singular united umbrella structure for Hinduism would be like trying to fit a square peg in a round hole. I personally feel great harm will be done in pruning down this vast tree into a bush that fits contemporary political designs.
I see similar attempts overseas by the Yoga community. The Hinduism via yoga studio is in the process of being reformed as a palatable dish to the western tastes. Sure for the moment sales will increase but in the long term it will change the very way of life the the Yoga Studios are trying to propagate.
The petitioners, however, in their plea had claimed that the book was based on “unreliable and unauthentic and one sided sources” and is full of biases, generalizations and pre-conceived notions. “That it has not only used and misused but abused Indian history and religion in an undignified manner. It is a mis-interpretation of Hindu dharma and its glorious past. That the defendant along with the author have selected scattered events of their choice and given them their own interpretation,” the petition had stated.
Quoting the excerpts from the book, the petition stated that the author incorrectly stated that “Hindu organizations began holding rallies at the site of Babur’s Mosque, campaigning for the rebuilding of the temple despite the absence of any evidence to confirm either the existence of the temple or even the identification of the modern town of Ayodhya”.
They also claimed that Doniger, in her book, had maliciously and mischievously written that “the monkey was presumed to be Hanuman, who has become the mascot of the RSS, the militant wing of the BJP”.
The petitioners also alleged that Doniger’s claim on Mahatama Gandhi and Swami Vivekananda eating “beef” and Jhansi Ki Rani having loyalty for Britishers was equivalent to “defaming the Indian freedom fighters in general”.
“That the author and publisher have wantonly indulged in unlawful act by showing photographs of Hindu god namely Lord Krishna sitting on the lap of a naked woman and surrounded by other naked women and thereby have tried to provoke people intending and knowing that it is likely to cause the offence of rioting,” the petition added.
Penguin Books India believes, and has always believed, in every individual’s right to freedom of thought and expression, a right explicitly codified in the Indian Constitution. This commitment informs Penguin’s approach to publishing in every territory of the world, and we have never been shy about testing that commitment in court when appropriate. At the same time, a publishing company has the same obligation as any other organisation to respect the laws of the land in which it operates, however intolerant and restrictive those laws may be. We also have a moral responsibility to protect our employees against threats and harassment where we can. The settlement reached this week brings to a close a four year legal process in which Penguin has defended the publication of the Indian edition of The Hindus by Wendy Doniger. We have published, in succession, hardcover, paperback and e-book editions of the title. International editions of the book remain available physically and digitally to Indian readers who still wish to purchase it. We stand by our original decision to publish The Hindus, just as we stand by the decision to publish other books that we know may cause offence to some segments of our readership. We believe, however, that the Indian Penal Code, and in particular section 295A of that code, will make it increasingly difficult for any Indian publisher to uphold international standards of free expression without deliberately placing itself outside the law. This is, we believe, an issue of great significance not just for the protection of creative freedoms in India but also for the defence of fundamental human rights.
A case is won or lost based on court (Judge/Jury) ruling. A settlement therefore cannot be cited as a precedent.
So, “why an apology ?” The answer is that it is good form.
Finally you ask were employees threatened ? I request that you read the statement from Penguin again.
NOW, for a change, let me ask a question.
“If Batra & Co think they have evidence on their side and have better than a snow ball chance in hell to win an “academic argument” why not try this in a US / UK court ?”
Why should Penguin fight the case? Wendy Doniger or any other litigant on her behalf should contest the case. Penguin has no locus standi as it is neither for nor against the book – it only published the book with the intent of making sales.
known commies and anti hindu people(jnu lobbby romila thapar) urged them ….what happened…
Because the depictions of India in the West are inseparable from depictions of India’s religious life (something that Indian secularists have tried to wish away unsuccessfully), the work done by RISA scholars has implications that go well beyond the discipline’s boundaries. Religion is prominently featured in South Asian Studies, Asian Studies, International Studies, Women’s Studies, Philosophy, Sociology, Anthropology, History, Literature, and Politics, and indirectly also influences Journalism, Film, and so forth. Therefore, the utter ignorance of Indians regarding such a discipline is a major gap that deserves attention and remedy.
Meanwhile, under Western control, Hinduism Studies has produced ridiculous caricatures that could easily be turned into a Bollywood movie or a TV serial. This Lila[ iv ] of the inner workings of RISA is the subject of this essay. (Readers who are unfamiliar with RISA and AAR should read this essay as a general account of Western academic engagement and control over India-related studies. While the examples given are RISA-specific, the message applies more broadly.)
Witzel on Doniger’s Mistranslation of the Rig Veda:
With due respects to Doniger’s scholarship and insights, it must be pointed out, because it is not universally known even among Indologists, that the depth of the professor’s knowledge of Sanskrit has been called into question by Professor Michael Witzel of Harvard University. To quote Witzel, Doniger’s “rendering of even the first two paadas [of Rig Veda] is more of a paraphrase than a translation,” and her style “is rather a stream of unconnected George-Bush-like anacoluths.” He goes on to illustrate his point by referring to Doniger’s translation of one verse, “He will shed tears, sobbing, when he learns,” and commenting that “there is no sobbing here,” and that she simply made that up to give the desired effect.
But it is not just in translation that Doniger fails. Her interpretations are also flawed. Witzel charges that Doniger “denies the possibility of male/female friendship — perhaps a current local cultural bias — but certainly not a Rgvedic one.” He also reveals that in her translations, “Sakhya is completely misunderstood, as is usual in such cases with Indologists not very conversant with Vedic; it is understood on the basis of Epic/Classical sakhi “friend” and thus the whole point of the apparent saying is missed. A Vedic sakhi is not just any friend…”
Astonished, Witzel concludes: “In this hymn (of 18 stanzas) alone I have counted 43 instances which are wrong or where others would easily disagree.”
Witzel on Doniger’s Mistranslation of the Jaiminiya Brahmana:
Regarding Wendy’s translation of “Jaiminiya Brahmana,” Prof. Witzel remarks: “And of course, the translation, again is a ‘re’-translation” of others’ works” in which she has “merely added a fashionable(?) Freudian coating…”
Witzel continues: “The trouble again is that [Doniger] did not follow up the secondary literature well, not even with the help of the students she mentions…if the sec. lit. had been used — the translation would have turned out much better.”
Witzel exposes “her predilection for street language colloquialisms,” such as “balls of cowshit, balls of shit” and “balls of Indra”, which Witzel considers to be “Vedic slang” not found in the Sanskrit texts. Furthermore, he charges, there are “many gaps in the translations where words or whole sentences have been forgotten…”
Even more seriously of concern to Witzel are Wendy’s errors in what he calls the “serious grammatical business,” for which he scolds her for “misunderstanding the ‘first-year Sanskrit’.” “Difficult sentences,” writes Witzel, “are simply left out without telling us so.”
Witzel concludes: “Simple question: if ‘that’ much is wrong in just one story (and this is a small selection only!) — what about the rest of this book and her other translations?… It might have been better to have used the old translations and to have added her Freudian interpretation to them… In sum: The “translation” simply is UNREALIABLE.”
Witzel on Doniger’s Mistranslation of the Laws of Manu:
Reviewing this translation by Doniger, Witzel writes: “I give just one example which shows both wrong (rather, lack of) philological method and lack of simple common sense.” (See endnote for the rather technical example.[ lxiii ])
Furthermore, Witzel criticizes Doniger for using only a small selection of the available variations. She does not invest serious energy in selecting what variations to use where and why. Therefore, concludes Witzel, her scholarship is not of the standard required by Harvard: “In view of all of this, I wonder indeed whether D’s translation would have been accepted in the Harvard Oriental Series rather than in Penguin…”
Witzel’s Conclusions:
This brief but devastating review of the Queen’s scholarship was just the tip of the iceberg of what Witzel could have done, had he not been asked to stop. His overall remarks about the above three examples of her mistranslation:
“Note that all 3 translations are RE-translations. Mistakes of the type mentioned above could easily have been avoided if the work of our 19th century predecessors (and contemporaries!) had been consulted more carefully… Last point: Looking at the various new translations that have appeared in the past decade or so: Why always to RE-translate something done ‘several’ times over already — and why not to take up one of the zillion UN-translated Skt. texts?”
Witzel is also critical of the heroic proclamations by Wendy’s cronies about her books: “And a little less hype would also do: ‘a landmark translation, the first authoritative translation in this century’ (cover); ‘to offer to more specialized scholars new interpretations of many difficult verses.’ (p. lxi) — I doubt it.”
The claim of critical inquiry with an open mind would require that RISA should have taken up these issues seriously. At the very least, there should be panels of scholars, whose careers are outside her influence, to critique Wendy’s work, because of her enormous power in academe.
So the MO seems to be to discredit WD rather than debate the merits/demerits/substance of the book.
If there is a genuine case to be made then a bigger bang for the efforts is achievable by pursuing this in the courts in US. After all Penguin still sells the book worldwide. Even in India, I think access is available via download.
Penguin says it wants to stay within the limits of the law however intolerant and restrictive the law is. Penguin is sort of saying that India is kind of intolerant and limits freedom of expression.
Hence if Batra believes in himself he should try and remove the tarnish his actions has caused to the image on India. Years and decades of good work by NRIs to build India’s image in the west has been washed away by this event. This is not how we want the works to perceive us.
protesters protested non violently in a civilized manner … if Wendy wants she can challenge in supreme court of India ,,,why not
Any one can write anything and get it published. They have a right. But then any aggrieved person can go to court against the author and publisher. That is their right too
Penguin opted for settlement after four years into litigation.Was the impending verdict leaked to them?
By making it a big issue, who have brought a third rate book into limelight and many pseudo-secularists suddenly have become great fans of this shallow book
Whether a God exists or not can be discussed, but a believer should not be altogether ridiculed
Ganesha’s trunk symbolizes a “limp phallus”; his broken tusk is a symbol for the castration-complex of the Hindu male; his large belly is a proof of the Hindu male’s enormous appetite for oral sex. Shiva, is interpreted as a womanizer, who encourages ritual rape, prostitution and murder, and his worship is linked to violence and destruction. ” The scholars are none other than Wendy Doniger and her bandwagon… are these arguments even remotely worth arguing?
“Any one can write anything and get it published. They have a right. But then any aggrieved person can go to court against the author and publisher. That is their right too”
Actually the second bit does not follow. Because a democracy should not have such laws. To have such a law perverts the very idea of freedom of speech. But again what if someone’s feelings are hurt by the Ramayana? What do you think the Courts would do? I rest my case!
I think it is not simple. As few things in life are. People do tend to get offended when such things are published or showcased
and I can understand it. Every right has to be exercised with responsibility and Democracy and freedom of speech should not be used as a license to hurt others’ sensibilities.
I think we all have a social responsibility to respect others views which supercedes the freedom to do whatever.
A one on one debate is different but published owrks or art is different in that respect. I can trash liberalism for sake of liberalism and a liberal can trash a Modi support when we are debating in person or on a forum.
And, whether justified or not, it does grate more when an American Indologist starts puting his/her own spin on deeply held religious customs and traditions.I will be honest here and confess that it would bother me far less if an Indian were saying these things. Because an outsider inspite of having sent years studying something doesnt have the same grasp or appreciation of customs/traditions, their history,their evolution and their meaning and importance to us.
I’m not sure if being an ‘insider’ equals any better grasp of local traditions or customs. How many North Indians have read the Kamban Ramayana? How many have seen a Tamil movie? The reverse is also true (if it is less so it is mostly because of hegemonic reasons.. for instance one is more exposed to Hollywood whether one likes it or not). Most North Indians if not all couldn’t name three Gujarati items on a menu! So where is this Indian who’s somehow aware of all these Indian traditions? The Ganapati festival which seems synonymous with Bombay was an invention of the British, at least in its current ‘epic’ form. How many people who celebrate the festival know this? If a Western scholar then points this out he or she is supposed to be insulting the native! The whole problem is precisely that the insider does not know in most cases. Because over time and to paraphrase a formulation of Gayatri Spivak’s history is translated into the ‘natural’. In other words what people consider to be timeless and obvious is really the product of a history. Christians did not always believe the things that pretty much every Christian believes today! Various Church councils decided these things and it has been centuries since. If you transplanted an RSS ideologue to the Gupta past he or she would have been regarded as some kind of alien! to exaggerating. It is the same move everywhere. And it is especially pronounced on the Right. We know this from the western record. With the claim of re-orienting oneself towards a tradition that tradition in that very moment is invented or (re)invented. there was no ‘german nation’ before various ideologues decided there was one! So in trying to restore German tradition they were inventing it. For the longest time there were all these German speaking areas and no one ever though it was one nation! Much as India is an ancient civilization but that is not at all the same as being one country in the nation-state sense of the word. Over time realities change in every sense but the names remain the same. And with these certain illusions.
Of course the question then becomes: who is the ‘insider’? According to many adivasis the Hindu as the ‘diku’ (their term for outsider) is the original outsider! But of course they don’t have the power to insist on this! Any nation, religion, ethnic group, linguistic group etc etc that insists on some kind of primary or primal ‘unity’ is always indulging in ‘fiction’. Pragmatically this might not mean much since most people in most countries aren’t exactly interested in facts that question their most cherished beliefs but that hardly changes those facts. Muslim in India follow a version of ‘Indo-Islam’ that is heavily influenced by Hindu strands whether they like it or not. It is very different from Islam in say the Mideast. Again no group likes its ‘popular wisdom’ questioned. But this is where the danger always lies. We massacre each other based on such fictions.
Whose feelings are offended by Ramayana? Raavan’s? or Kaikeyi’s ? I think religious texts unless they spew venom or recommend violence against certain groups should be considered sacrosanct in this respect.
I would accord the same respect to Bible as I expect an American to give to Bhagwad Gita.
If a religion even Hinduism prmotes casteism,genocide,discrimination, I am as against it as anyone else. I dont need an American scholar to tell me that.
actually there are many in North India who would be offended by the Kamban Ramayana if they read it. The latter is let’s say much closer to Ratnam’s film than anything else! And this is not to even account for many other indigenous Ramayana traditions that most people are not aware of including some tribal versions. The distinctions here are very significant. For instance it makes all the difference in the world if Raavan is an absolute villain and on the other hand some kind of Vijay-like anti-hero! The worst religious wars occur within religion as various wars between Catholics and protestants reveal from the historical record. These were absolute bloodbaths. Or for instance today Shiites and Sunnis don’t think that somehow each side just has a slightly different interpretation of the Koran! They feel the other is fundamentally wrong and there are even harsher condemnations than this which is why again in Pakistan for example (and not only here) you have them brutally murdering each other. The longest wars of religion in Indian history were actually between Buddhists and Orthodox Hindus before the former were decisively defeated. So within religion and without there are plenty who are offended. The religious views depends on this kind of exclusivity even at the level of sects. It is often an obfuscation to believe that sects are formed on the basis of trivial things. Nothing could be further from the truth. What seems trivial is really the symptom of what are fundamental differences. It might be polite liberalism to say one should respect all religions and so on and it’s certainly a view I share but this is not the view of any religion on its own. And it makes perfect sense. If you think you have a certain royal road to cosmic truths and that you have access to the deepest questions of existence you are not likely to think all of this is simply relative! But again to stress the first point it is precisely ‘within’ religion that offense is first caused. For the same reason no orthodox text or practice (which eventually passes off as the ‘common sense’ of a religion) is achieved without a rather violent struggle. Which is why once more there are all these bloody histories within all faiths that are about trying to establish orthodoxies. Once those orthodoxies are established all other voices are automatically muffled. For instance the Ramayana does not have anything like the kind of centrality in the Indian tradition the way Hindutva pretends it does. In fact the Ramayana was reinvented over more than a century as the answer to the Bible or the Koran (because these folks believed they were conquered again and again by monomaniacs and hence the problem must have been diversity!). At most one could say that the Tulasidas text has been canonical in the North but even that history is relatively recent. The Vedas are much more ancient. Why privilege the Ramayana so much? This is about a certain cultural archive but it is also about ideology. Then there is the huge caste fault-line, far greater than the religious divide. Why is it that lower castes see Hindutva or the BJP primarily as an upper caste affair? Many of them deeply distrust the Ramayana and other canonical texts because they perceive them as advancing an upper caste agenda. Which is why they often have alternative versions. I can’t hope to do justice to all these histories here but India is more a test case for the absence of any such unifying text or set of beliefs than most other contemporary societies. This was essentially a colonial construct. Anyone who wasn’t a monotheists was just a ‘Hindi’ when in fact there was no such sense for millennia of Indian history. All non-monotheists are not the same! Even today in various parts of India there are various traditions of belief (in the South for example) for which the Ramayana tradition is quite marginal or for which the entire Northern apparatus is not crucial. if you watch a 100 Tamil movies for every one Ram reference you will come across a 1000 Murugan ones (and I am being conservative). meanwhile no one in UP cares about Murugan! These examples could be multiplied. So this idea that the Ramayana is some kind of ur-text for ‘Hinduism’ is patently absurd. But the point again is that offense is often an ‘intra-religious’ affair much more than an ‘inter-religious’ one. And India of course has both. When people are killing each other brutally in riots or pogroms and destroyed each other’s mosques and temples in the name of religion do you really think they are not offended by each other’s texts?
Ravana as a Dravidian icon but people like Karunanidhi’s party is vehemently anti-Brahmin
The anti-God issue didn’t click, the remnants of the anti-North plank is the language issue and the anti-Brahmin plank has been fulfilled and thus has become irrelevant. The false controversy of Rama vs Ravana sells for those who want to live in the past, in vain
Dravidian politics for the longest time had a strong rationalist strain which entailed a certain hostility to religion (this has nothing to do with Raavan.. that’s a separate discussion). But this too is a case in point. Hard to imagine a major party in the North with that kind of platform. As for the rest they keep playing musical chairs there. Communist politics has been a very important part of Keralite history. Again can’t imagine this in the North (I mean North India proper though there have been important archives here.. for instance no film on Bhagat Singh talks about his real Communist leanings.. there are documents he wrote to this effect though the history has been repressed over time). This precisely makes my point. As for this being a thing of the past keep dreaming. One election or two doesn’t alter larger historical patterns.
where is kolkata which was ruled by your beloved communists..
what is rationality to you is chauvinism regionalism and north has many so called regional player
for all rationality one see movie stars and script writers turning into rational icons riding on reel life and even has religious temple attached to them
Not sure what your question is. The Communists were there for decades. Everything gets stale beyond a point! As for whether their rule was worthwhile or not that’s a completely different debate. But if you are interested in numbers you should be willing to digest these as well:
leaving aside this rag you’ve quoted (you have a knack for picking these!) being communist and being nationalist are hardly contradictory. You fight for a nation that you then wish to be communist! Anyway here’s something in Bhagat Singh’s own hand:
koran arabic and hindu india like islamic india bla bla and somebody said there was no settlement and withdrawal
Penguin has agreed to withdraw Wendy Doniger’s book “The Hindus” from India & destroy all copies. See agreement below http://t.co/VrgYDVgnwG—
Rajiv Malhotra (@RajivMessage)
photo/1 (see what it is)
how many employees of penguin where threatened in last 4 years or any restriction on sale…mutual consent on the time of arrival of verdict and face saving exercise
nothing was deleted. More than one link and it goes into moderation. Sometimes you repeat stuff, for example you provide a link and then you put up the story in that link separately. I sometimes reduce such clutter though that didn’t happen today.
koran arabic and hindu india like islamic india bla bla and somebody said there was no settlement and withdrawal
Penguin has agreed to withdraw Wendy Doniger's book "The Hindus" from India & destroy all copies. See agreement below http://t.co/VrgYDVgnwG— Rajiv Malhotra (@RajivMessage) February 10, 2014
(see what it is)
how many employees of penguin where threatened in last 4 years or any restriction on sale…mutual consent on the time of arrival of verdict and face saving exercise
Brilliant discussion by all of u folks
( though owned by my ‘protege’ Amy)
Keep it up guyz..
Satyam: stop modifying / deleting people’s comments
Only a few can deal / cope with it/ cheers
Some good points also by mr/ms bandra nri.
“Take the issue about Swami Vivekananda, his position on “meat” is well documented”- plz elaborate thanx
“Ganesha’s trunk symbolizes a “limp phallus”; his broken tusk is a symbol for the castration-complex of the Hindu male; his large belly is a proof of the Hindu male’s enormous appetite for oral sex. Shiva, is interpreted as a womanizer, who encourages ritual rape, prostitution and murder, and his worship is linked to violence and destruction. ” –
IF this is what these books are saying, it’s totally avoidable & need to be curbed.
I’m all for freedom of speech et al. But the problems that religion is a highly emotive issue for most and a certain mob/hate frenzy comes in, making the already murky waters even more open to misinterpretation and mudslinging
Even if certain ‘wrongs’ were done in the past, as long as they are not being glorified or practised nowadays, there’s not much need to ‘expose’ or elaborate on them now esp when it can lead to discord or violence. Similarly for eg, i don’t get the point why film after film is needed every year to ‘bring to life’ the ‘horrors of slavery’ as in 20 years a slave etc. The actual ‘intenth’ of these ‘exposes’ even if genuine, is inadvertently hijacked by other motivated & perverse lobbies..
On those extracts those are indeed from the book. However you present them decontextualized which is always a problem. But leaving this aside there is a great stress on sexuality in ancient Indian representation (artistic or otherwise) and beyond. As Foucault might have said we are the “other Victorians” which is why we find this problematic. But again decontextualized these passages carry a certain shock value. Doniger often has a thematic organization where she explores different themes in the history. So she might look at the evolution of caste over time (caste after the British isn’t the same as it was before they arrived let alone being the way it was in earlier ages.. not that one was better or the other worse just that it was often differently configured.. for instance the category of the so-called ‘untouchable’ was greatly intensified, expanded, if not invented by the British) or the role sexuality played (here there’s tons of evidence.. this is the culture that gave us the kamasutra.. we might be prudes about it, they weren’t!), the changing understanding of the Mahabharata, so on and so forth. In doing so she obviously looks at sources that the bourgeois tradition led by one orthodoxy or another has repressed. Here too the British intervention is decisive. Because it was the colonizer, especially in the Victorian age, who was most repelled by certain celebrations of sexuality and who then classified it as some kind of primitive expression of ‘unbounded’ licentiousness and so forth.
And this gets me to the more important. The article here is more than a little hysterical. Disappointingly for a professor it relies on the vaguest generalities. He invokes Said but this is precisely what Said never did. Said was never hysterical in any sense. His breakthrough book was about the ‘construction’ of the ‘Orient’ by the British and French colonizer. In other words an imaginary space then filled in by ‘knowledge’ about the Oriental native. This is precisely the same dynamic that played out with respect to India or china or Africa and so forth. In each case the ‘local’ was defined through the prism of colonial vision. Entire bodies of knowledge and inquiry were set up this way which over time became decisive. This is precisely one of the reasons why colonialism was an event and why it didn’t end just because the colonizer physically exited. We still consciously or unconsciously live with those bodies of knowledge. So for instance when we understand Indian history or religion or culture or sociology or politics etc etc etc we are still dealing with that British frame whether we know it or not. The entire political fabric of India exists because of British models, the organization of Indian states reveals that heritage, the Bollywood territory system still exhibits British realities, it would take an encyclopedia to itemize all these examples. And yes Hindutva is in the most precise ways through and through imbricated with Western ideologies.
My point here isn’t that all of this is simply ‘bad’ and must be left behind. First of all the historical layering is simply too complex in this or any other situation to be simply taken apart and restored to some original state. You can’t rewind history. You can change the names of streets and fountains but you still can’t hit the rewind button. what would another good example be of this? Take the contemporary Mideast. Every single thing that happens there today is a set of events that can be traced back to British and French colonial decisions. Because the entire Mideast was carved up by them in its present form. The Mideast in the contemporary sense of the term simply did not exist before this. And how do we understand the Mideast? Using the very same bodies of knowledge that the colonizer bequeathed to us. This was Said’s point. But even after one understands this one cannot simply walk away from the history. We are all, each one of us, marked by a similar colonial intervention. It is not that we are Indians, then the Muslim conquerors arrived, we continued to be Indians, then the British arrived, we were still the same Indians (of course there is no ‘Hindu’ India to begin with the way the Right defines it). Each such intervention changed India permanently. There is no Indian ‘essence’ that is preserved over time. There are continuities but there are great disruptions too. And guess who invented this idea of ‘eternal India’? Once again the British!
So in a hysterical piece like the one you’ve cited herein lies the problem. The very categories you (the writer here) try to defend against scholars like Doniger are in the first place colonial inventions and/or permanently marked by colonial history. If anything one of the huge moves in Western academia more at least half a century has been to account for all these facets of colonialism in a global sense and try to retrieve the pre-colonial or even where this is not possible to identify those other strands of history and experience that were repressed or distorted by the colonizer. It’s a very difficult project and one cannot just get done with it. In India there has come about in this same period the whole school of postcolonial history and historiography that is a model of scholarship in very many ways and has influenced others around the world. In every case the results are eye-opening. Each one of these ‘Indian’ authors is doing work in his or her field that is more or less aligned with Doniger’s project. In each instance the ‘excavation’ reveals something unusual about religion or caste or race or ethnicity or political configuration and so on. So Doniger becomes an easy target for the usual xenophobic reasons but these guys should check out what Indian scholars are themselves doing!
We all love Sholay and Deewar. These are not just rooted Indian films, they also owe a heavy debt to certain non-Indian models. And one could say this about very many important films from different ages of Bombay film history. So it happens at every level. Within India though there is also a ‘Sanskrit’ hegemony which has been profoundly destabilizing and worse from non-Sanskritic cultures. In the South there is often a reaction against this but once again once that event has happened there is no going back. So Tamil or Malayalam have a heavy admixture of Sanskrit vocabulary. Tamil literature was influenced by Sanskrit models even in ancient times. There is simply no walking away from history. Tribals are one-sixth of the Indian population. In many parts of Eastern and Central India their word for ‘Hindu’ is ‘diku’ or outsider. They as the ‘original inhabitants’ or the ‘adivasis’ consider the ‘Hindu’ the outsider who conquered. Which of course testifies to the historical experience. Vedic or Sanskrit is an Indo-European language and this was brought to India (can’t get into the entire linguistic history here). At that point there were ‘Dravidians’ already there as well as tribals (whether they were the first or not who knows? This is only about recorded history.. no one is really ‘first’). This isn’t a history that Hindutva likes or accepts! But the historical evidence from the linguistic and beyond is overwhelming. So again these histories are very complex, always politicized. The question is whether one just prefers the self-serving myth or if one is interested in the facts such as these can be most reasonably determined.
There is nothing new in this sense in India. In every culture there are these self-serving illusions, ‘narcissisms’ if you will. These range from ideas of national purity to cultural and ethnical and racial and religious essentialism. In each case one might argue similarly and in each case the ‘natives’ are often upset. It is then easy not to engage with the substance of things and attack the messenger. It’s human nature. You feel you’re losing your identity if you are made to lose your most cherished ideas of history and culture and so forth. No one said the ‘truth’ was easy! Whether at a personal level or at the level of community.
Here is the problem, if you do not already know what Swami Vivekananda says about meat then pursuing a critical discussion of passages within WD’s book vis a vis SV is not practical or perhaps even possible.
Have been a bit lazy to read n post lately…anyhow a quick one.
There’s a difference between constructive alternatism, originality/innovation from wanton provocative mischief. The latter has some entertainment gun quotient at personal/ localised milieus but at a large scale national religious levels where entire groups can feel targeted, it’s effects can range from random nuisance to discord to violence.
There’s also a role for those engaged in sociocultural epidemiological historical case profiling etc but there’s a space for it and a scientific sensible way to go on about it.
A quick google is all it’s needed-so chill mr/ms NRI http://www.vivekananda.net/ByTopic/MeatEating.html
See the context–anyhow this isn’t directly relevant to the debate. Also vegetarianism isn’t a cardinal point anyways.
http://muse.jhu.edu/journals/journal_for_early_modern_cultural_studies/summary/v002/2.1.von-sneidern.html
A sample of Wendy’s mental preoccupations …
That’s how zealots get active.
Now if a shrewd zealot morphs Wendy’s face onto a scantily clad body engaged in perverted acts–
& puts up a disclaimer that this is a fake image and it is only a metaphorical expression of what Wendy donigers mental maps appear to another ‘free speech’ individual-& goes around postin that image –is it technically wrong?
Yes or no–but then if he claims that this expression is also some piece of art and this is given ‘sanction’ by other ‘artistic individuals’ who ‘rate’ &’critically analyse’ this image–the whole facade goes a bit too far…
WD career spans five decades. She is Mircea Eliade Distinguished Service Professor of the History of Religions; also in the Department of South Asian Languages and Civilizations, the Committee on Social Thought, and the College
Yet the excellence she has demonstrated has no weight on those who attacks her. She is being challenged by people who have not even read her book leave alone studied her field of expertise. You seems to equate your “googled” knowledge on par with her.
Somehow everything but the substance has become paramount.
I have no issues with donigers ‘5 decades of experience’ & her PhDs (& personally can get where this stuff is coming from) but it’s the likely reception & repercussions of the ‘public release’ of such material which are problematic
Besides -even on a purely ‘practical’ or common sense level—
““Ganesha’s trunk symbolizes a “limp phallus”; his broken tusk is a symbol for the castration-complex of the Hindu male; his large belly is a proof of the Hindu male’s enormous appetite for oral sex. Shiva, is interpreted as a womanizer, who encourages ritual rape, prostitution and murder, and his worship is linked to violence and destruction. ” forget Hinduism or Christianity etc
Pray explain us how such an ‘interpretation’ came out from the ‘research’. Were all the gods sex-maniacs ?
And why is she perceiving every ‘rod-like’ object as a ‘phallic symbol’? Maybe the problem (& solution is somewhere else)?
Btw do tell us about your ‘tastes’ & favorites actors /films (so I can get a handle of where u r coming from)…
Bandra nri–On a serious note–maybe u r new here —–
But I’m not comfortable with such ‘obscene stuff’ in general
Infact I’m a bit ‘shy’ when it comes to such things 🙂
Honestly ask yourself, what does your preference, comfort, knowledge, ignorance etc etc have to be with WD’s freedom to pursue her profession ? Do you (or me) in the scheme of things really matter vis a vis WD ?. Till some few moments ago you did not know SV’s positions. Now after a clicks on Google you feel you are empowered to limit/restrict a renowned scholar/professor from a very reputable university.
Do you think, WD is just some Google University Alumni who accidentally rose up the ranks at UNIVERSITY OF CHICAGO and one day found herself named ACLS Haskins Prize Lecturer for 2015
That incredibly ironic moment when Alex disapproving of objects perceived as phallic! 😛
It is puerile to take a few of the most seemingly sensationalist lines of an author’s entire oeuvre and quote them completely out of context. Also, if you find these sentences so staggeringly offensive that you think the book should be revoked and pulped in order not to incite violence, why on earth do you keep quoting them continuously?!
M wanted to have sex with is new bride (# X) and guests were not leaving. So he immediately came up with a “vision” and came up with a immediate religious dictat. “after marriage the guests should leave immediately”. I should put all his “visions” in a book and I will immediately be fatwa-oed and possibly be killed. WD is one lucky one to pick on a most tolrant people in the world.
Hindus take what is good from their religion and discard what is not relevant. Idol worship is only symbolic and has become a tradition than something serious. I dont know why scholars want to attribute things and fantasize. One need not read these books in detail as these findings are fantasizing a fantasy called hindu religion. A sort of timepass. I t will hurt some, it will not have any effect on others.
Much ado about nothing. Can we imagine hinduism without idol worship and rituals? Take a hindu marriage, hindu festival or hindu funeral rites. They represent what hinduism is to many who believe int them and no one is compelled to follow them. Many can be hindus just for name sake.
must read piece on kejriwal. by Aatish Taseer in Open Magazine–
He is not so much the aam aadmi as he is the caricature of an aam aadmi. He is like the Punjab Power employee Shah Rukh Khan plays in Rab ne Bana di Jodi, who, out of a kind of shame at his ordinariness, adopts a Bergerac-esque proxy to win the love of his wife. http://www.openthemagazine.com/article/voices/the-runaway-messiah
Left liberals, as they call themselves, have realised that defeat is certain and with this defeat they will lose that ‘elite thinkers’ tag. And the plum posts, foreign trips and bungalows and other perks. There is a reverse revolution taking place. It’s the innocent masses, who have suffered intellectual injustice, they are raising their voices. It’s the organically secular majority of Bharat, which has been made to feel like communal evils, that is asserting its identity. Modi is just their face. So do not make the mistake of thinking that its Modi vs others.
Hilarious piece by The Great Bong—-
If you have any doubt as to how tolerant and let’s say “anti-fascist” our media is one need look only at how they conduct themselves. Recently a major, highly respected news outlet was found to have issued a notice to their employees as to not eat non-veg food in their canteens because it offended vegetarians. The term for this is “food fascism” and it was used, I think, by the self-same paper in another context for someone else, because others must be judged by different standards than the ones we apply for ourselves. When questioned, the proprietors of this anti-fascist paper cast the problem in a most logically consistent framework that can be summarized as “Our private property. Our prerogative”. The reason why I use the word “consistent” is because the same newspaper called out “housing apartheid” when owners of apartments refused to rent their premises to people of another faith following the principle of “Our private property. Our prerogative”, a line of reasoning that sounds even more amazingly awesome when you realize that a corporation is not really as “private a place” as one’s house. I mean if the said newspaper was a vegetarian restaurant serving vegetarians one could understand restriction on employees given that employee behavior violates its business policies, but given that it prints papers, how restricting the food choices for their minorities is nothing but heavy handed majoritarianism is something lesser minds, the type of people who read its main rival and know the birthday of Katrina Kaif but not the name of the nation’s Vice President, might struggle to understand. http://greatbong.net/2014/05/08/fascism-is-coming/
Housing Co-ops in NYC apply all sorts of rules for renters/buyers. These rules have withstood the test of judicial scrutiny in the mecca of liberalism (ie NYC). The purveyors of equal rights will be surprised to see gross discrimination by the Co-op boards which go unchallenged, or cannot even be challenged in courts of law. And more surprising will be the fact that when rich liberals get into these boards, they themselves will uphold the same discriminatory practices. Ultimately, when it comes to private housing property, the rule of law grants a wide leeway to interpretation of rules. Everyone wants to protect their investments, it is always money over morals.
I am sure there are exceptions here and there, but I do not think there is any Housing Assoc that regularly and blatantly discriminates on the basis is age, race, religion, gender etc.
Nothing is ever blatant. All sorts of discrimination is practiced under-wraps, and the rejected applicants have no recourse of law to fall back on. It is a pain to buy one of these co-ops and an even bigger pain to sell, mostly because the governing boards have wide discretionary powers to reject, and they do robustly enforce these powers.
Mafia-don-turned politician Mukhtar Ansari was released on Saturday on custody parole from Central Jail in Agra for a day to campaign in Lok Sabha election.
Escorted by a large posse of security personnel, Ansari, whose Quami Ekta Dal is supporting Congress in Varanasi and who is contesting from Ghosi constituency, was released after his wife Afshan furnished a bond of Rs 1.27 lakh.
The gangster-turned politician, who lost to BJP leader Murli Manohar Joshi by just 17,000 votes in Varanasi in 2009, was taken in an ambulance to his constituency of Ghosi accompanied by his wife and other members of the family.
Soon after his release, BJP questioned the timings of the release of Ansari, facing trial in a case under stringent Maharashtra Control of Organised Crime Act (MCOCA) for allegedly being a member of an organised crime syndicate, was granted custody parole on May 1 for 10 days by a Delhi court for campaigning in Lok Sabha poll.
Ansari will campaign in Ghosi, Balia and Mau districts on Saturday.
A CBI court last Saturday granted Ansari custody parole till May 10 for election campaigning. He is contesting from Ghosi constituency on a Quami Ekta Dal ticket.
History sheeter Mukhtar Ansari’s party announces support for Congress in Varanasi
The mafia-don-turned politician, is a member of the UP Assembly from Mau.
Purvanchal’s dreaded gangster Mukhtar Ansari-led Quami Ekta Dal had earlier announced its support for Congress candidate Ajay Rai, charged in several criminal cases, against BJP’s Prime Ministerial candidate Narendra Modi in Varanasi.
Mukhtar Ansari announces support to Congress’s Ajay Rai in Varanasi
Ansari had in 2009 was in fray in Varanasai against senior BJP leader Murli Manohar Joshi and lost the election by a margin of nearly 18000 votes.
Depending upon one’s pre-disposition, It is amazing how the same thing takes on different meanings. One might see Arnab fawning over Modi in the above interview, someone else might read the same and see that as Arnab leaving some money on the dresser on his way out.
But given the head lock he put Modi into, it is natural he would try to dust off any resulting residue on his credibility by saying something “nice” too. This is Arnab making sure that the brand Arnab is seen as fair & neutral.
known commie code of colouring things with lame argument can be judged how when siddharth rangaran started talking about so called “dog whistle politics” when actually someone bluntly talked about bangladeshi refugees…people are aware and so called spin can’t be done
The Illegal Migrants Determination by Tribunal or IMDT Act was enacted in 1983 by Indira Gandhi government. The act made it difficult to deport illegal immigrants from Assam and also they are allowed to vote for Congress party in elections
“it was the pioneer of dog whistle politics in india ”
other was 42nd amendment in constitution called secularism during emergency
btw dont what will happen on 16th may but on same day in 1996(16th may ) atal bihari vajpayee government was sworn it and lasted for 13 days and by how many votes he lost vote of no confidence…only 1 and ironically the whole main stream media was silent for cash for vote scam in parliament and how a man mohan singh saved his government
Forget SR, Forget IMDT Act, Forget IG. We can talk about that in the future (near future if needed).
Let’s us focus on Arnab-Modi interview. Let’s focus on Arnab’s question on Modi’s “Manifesto”. Now THAT IS CLASSICAL “Dog Whistle”.
Nothing that happened before can justify Modi’s Dog Whitsle. Hence SR, IMDT, IG etc etc cannot justify anything. Something reprehensible is reprehensible.
Worst is the very weak defense by Modi. It would have been far better if he had said, “I am wrong” . He should have apologized and promised to correct the manifesto. He should have said that indeed he believed in protection for ALL and will do everything possible to remove any doubt on that issue.
I would had respect for Modi had he made amends. Instead he chose to double down. I think this too some day will find its way in a John Oliver set piece. My worst fear is that Modi will become the PM and then we will all turn into a laughing stock. Wherever he goes (foreign country), there will be the same charges discussed again and again in the media. The attention will always be on Modi’s alleged racist leanings rather than the issues.
I call Barkha, Arnab and Rajdeep the lowest BAR in journalism. Degeneration of TV news owes them a great debt. Drama, sensationalism, fake news and even absolute lies characterise their TV channels. Despite their contempt for the man and their consistent loathing, all of them desire an interview with Narendra Modi. Like a jealous poodle Rajdeep even ridicules other journalists who manage an interview with Modi. So what happens when one of these “news traders” (as Modi calls them) does get an interview? He makes an absolute sham of it. That’s what Arnab Goswami did. He didn’t have any real questions for Modi except a couple of stray ones on illegal immigration and Indo-Pak relations.
A man who could be PM is with you and all that the gasbag Arnab could ask him was about frivolous “Neech” politics and mundane questions on 2002 that have been asked a zillion times already. They really don’t know what to ask the man. I think more than obliging Arnab with an interview it is Modi who wanted to badly slap the moron for his pathetic behaviour as a news editor. Arnab has been batting for Congress, particularly Mrs Vadra, as if his life depended on it for more than a month. Even an idiot can tell that such campaigning for Congress can’t come free and had to come with a great payoff. Modi was scoring free hits off a guy who otherwise screams a lot but became a rat once a giant was in front of him.
Except at this point we are trying to just focus on one question. Media can be discussed later.
So let’s get back to the matter Arnab raised with Modi on the manifest. Why don’t you say whether you too think the discriminatory & restrictive word used is appropriate ? Modi says that his intent was to be inclusive, he says he stand for a right to return for ALL, but strangely (sick) still defends the language in the Manifest, what do you say ?
Do you agree with Modi on the rights for all (not for just one community) ? Do you believe that is his intent ?
Do you agree with Arnab that the language should be more inclusive ? Especially given existing and lingering allegations against Modi.
Why is Modi not changing the controversial words in the Manifest ?
Persecuted Hindus living outside India can only go to India for refuge. If Muslims outside India find themselves persecuted, they should go find refuge in the 50 other Islamic countries. Was one partition in 1947 not already done to provide an Islamic refuge to the so-called persecuted Indian (of pre-1947 origin) muslims? Wasn’t Pakistan already created to be a refuge for persecuted Indian Muslims? So why should India be taking on that burden once again?
Why then should the BJP change anything in their manifesto? I am actually disappointed that Modi did not make the 1947 distinction crystal clear.
Do the seculars think that India should re-accept Muslims from Pak/Bangla because they feel persecuted in said countries? If that be the case, the seculars should also call for a re-unification of the sub-continent, which will be a wholesome solution to the issue of persecuted people across the present borders within the sub-continent. I mean seriously, this secular pandering has stretched too far, beyond any logical reasoning.
Only in a dark corner of a dementedd mind one can believe that the price of partition was paid exclusively by one community OR India was created exclusively for one community. I suggest you look at the Indian flag (a Tri Colored testimony) to understand all race and religions are equal under the law. India was, is and will be for all Indians.
This matter is about Human Rights, and equal access to all privileges.
Modi will be more secular than the so called secularists. He is using RSS and Hindu card to gain personal glory Just wait and watch. The hindus who supported him will be disappointed while the muslims need not fear anything. Muslims will be more safe under Modi as he has a reputation to protect in international circles. Pakistan will be happy, China will be happy, separatists will be happy. Only hardcore hindus will be disappointed. See how he treated Pravin Togadiya.
only person who will be unhappy if he rules for sometime will be opposition…even a modi if elected will take 1-2 years to cleaar this deep mess created
togadiya campaigned and favoured congress in last assembly election and so do bukhari…
hardcore hindus along with other leaders are not issuing sermons for votes but others are doing
Many who vote for BJP are for meritocracy, not reservations based on caste. By proclaiming that he is an OBC, what message does he send to this group who detest the very word reservation? This is a clear instance of appeasement towards OBCs who form the largest chunk of hindu vote base.
It will be interesting to see a new government. Hope one party will get clear majority so that it need not depend on regional parties who hijack the government and blackmail them.
” that the price of partition was paid exclusively by one community OR India was created exclusively for one community. I suggest you look at the Indian flag (a Tri Colored testimony) to understand all race and religions are equal under the law. India was, is and will be for all Indians.
This matter is about Human Rights, and equal access to all privileges.”
No one is denying human rights to those who chose to stay in India after partition, it was their decision, as the country is truely secular. India in fact provided them with a parallel personal law system which protected their religion. But even then, there were many who left to find an alternate Islamic refuge in a land which was carved out of secular India. The biggest irony in this history is that Pakistan actually stopped accepting Muslim refugees from India by the end of the 50s. There are thousands of Bihari muslims living as stateless refugees in Bangladesh because Pakistan denied them citizenship! So in retrospect, the raison-detre of partition was a total sham. The elites of Pakistan did a landgrab in the garb of providing an Islamic refuge. So are you suggesting that India carve out another Islamic refuge in the future? Because most certainly, unless India provides a Sharia state, the demands will never cease of be satiated. Do not be naive enough to believe otherwise.
And meanwhile Kashmiri Hindu Pandits get kicked out of an Indian state and are treated lower than pondscum, living in filthy conditions right under the nose of the Indian federal govt in New Delhi.
I also am not arguing that the price of partition was paid by only one community. I empathize with the Mohajirs, who had to endure an arduous deadly journey from UP/Bihar all the way to Sindh. But however, the Partition was The Solution to answer the question of providing exclusive rights to Muslim citizens of a secular pre-independent India. So it would be oxymoronic to now claim that the eviscerated contemporary India undertake another exercise to provide refuge for persecuted Muslims. It is Pakistan that has the exclusive ownership of providing said refuge, not an already truncated India.
This is not us Vs them. This is just an internal, family matter. There is no outsider or insider. India was not ever one’s community’s asset that someone just carved out it and gave to someone else. Any such thought is purely delusional.
So as to put this side bar to rest, let me state the following:
If you feel that you had, have, will have a higher/bigger claim to India as compared to some other Indian (regardless of race, religion, gender, etc), then that is a delusion.
If you feel that you sacrificed/suffered more during partition than some other Indian (regardless of race, religion, gender etc), then that is your delusion.
Pre-Partition India belonged to ALL Indians and post partition, India still belongs to ALL Indians who live here. Every Indian is precious. No single person or group is more precious vis-a-vis others.
Now what Pakistan is or not is something I allow the Pakistanis to decide. It is not my matter. If you do care so much about Pakistan, then move to Pakistan and re-shape it into whatever you desire.
While you too are an Indian, your opinion on India does matter. But that opinion is just another opinion of an Indian. There are other opinions and other Indians too. The constitution and the Supreme Court, both say all Indians are equal, and if you imply that you are more than equal then that is your delusion. If you imply that India belongs to you more than that is your delusion.
Hence if we allow a right to return to anyone, then we will have to allow to all with Indian roots the same rights (on similar grounds), regardless of race, religion, gender, etc
Excuse me, who ever talked about violating the rights of other Indians?? Hold your horses dude, before accusing others of being delusional. Off course every Indian citizen has equal rights, no one here is questioning that fundamental truth.
We are talking about providing refuge to people whose ancestors lived in India. One can justify a right to refuge to every community irrespective of religion, that had migrated outside India pre-1947. But post-1947, things need to be looked differently. One cannot just start accepting non-Hindu refugees from present day Pak/Bangla.
FYI, even the PIO card is not offered to non-Hindus who have any ancestral linkage to Pak/Bangla. This is not a BJP policy, it is a policy designed by the Congress themselves, so as to deny any Indian legal rights to non-Hindus who reside in those countries. A policy for refugees has to be similar to a policy for PIOs. The BJP manifesto reflects that adequately. IMO, this new secular confusion is entirely related to electoral politics, especially to garner votes by assigning legal status to ‘infiltrators’. In this Arnab interview, Modi should have infact reminded Arnab about the PIO policy of the GOI.
Malini Parthasarathy @MaliniP · Sep 29
It’s notable that Modi who wants to lead this multilingual country speaks only in Hindi. How does he hope to have all-India appeal?
Lol, as if Raul was conversing in Bengali/Tamil/Kannada/Odiya/Gujurati etc etc.
After seeing the exit polls, Liberals are all shivering everywhere. If these poll results are fulfilled, the libs will go batshit crazy on TV.
Even now they are all going blue in the face, trying to deny a Modi Wave.
One guy on NDTV claims that Modi is the ‘mukhota’ of the anti-Congress sentiment, but he is not a recipient of a pro-Modi support!
Another guy claims that unless they win 400+ seats like Rajiv did in 1984, there can be no Modi wave (off course conveniently disregarding the fact that there were no SP/BSP/TMC/BJD/TRS/NCP etc etc in 1984!).
Another claims that Rahul was half-heartedly campaigning because he had to carry the baggage of a govt he was not a part of, hence the junta is rejecting the Congress, but not supporting Modi! No answer on why Junta cud not vote for the myriad other alternate parties instead of the BJP
Expect more and more of such spaghetti logic from revered liberals in the coming days.
yes but don’t you think the opposite view is an equally dishonest one as well? That irrespective of how many seats Modi wins, irrespective of the kind of coalition he has to form, so on and so forth, that there will have been a Modi wave! The mere fact of his winning would be proof of this wave. But every time a government changes we don’t quite call it a wave do we? His wouldn’t even be the first BJP govt! Now could the results indicate a wave? Sure! But there are numbers that suggest waves and those that don’t.
Also it’s not reasonable to say that those other parties weren’t around then. This sounds suspiciously like the SRK fan saying (as they used to once) that Bachchan’s films were big hits in the 70s because there wasn’t satellite TV or whatever to distract people! You can only do well on the playing field you occupy, not some other. And so by argument with respect to SRK always was that his success by no means defined the limit of what was possible even in his age. Safe to say that many developments since the 90s have more or less made this case. Similarly if Modi does not get the absolute best result it’s not because other parties are around but that he couldn’t convince enough people. Or if one wishes to read this in more historic terms to win absolute victories in India you also need to appeal to the largest cross-section of people. If you limit yourself in certain ways you also limit the magnitude of your victory. So these things are not unconnected. The very historical forces that brought about the rise of the BJP also enabled many of these other parties to appear (caste or otherwise). One cannot then somehow look at the BJP side of this poll as some kind of post-Congress constant and treat the others as irritants. The opposite is true. In a post-Congress age both the BJP and something like the BSP are equal symptoms. This frustrates BJP supporters but they have unfortunately (for themselves) produced inadequate definitions of Indianness or Hinduness or what have you. If all of India agreed with their definitions we wouldn’t need these other parties! If for instance lower castes in many parts of India simply thought that the BJP or Hindutva sense of history in all sorts of matters was the right one they would vote for it. They clearly don’t agree! One could multiply these examples.
But in any case, and getting back to the original point, one cannot call everything that results in a new government a wave. It might be this but it won’t be this in every instance.
Satyam,
It is not as simple as making an analogy to SRK!! If an analyst on TV makes a ridiculous comparison to the 1984 results, he ought to be tarred and feathered. Post-1990, no party has ever gotten a simple majority all by itself. Seriously, why would anyone want to disregard post-Mandal politics. Indian politics history is divided between the pre-Mandal and post-Mandal periods. The year 1990 was a watershed year, it empowered caste-based parties which were non-existent before that year. Also, many of these regional satraps were Congressmen in the 80s. When Rajiv bagged 400+, he had all these regional powercenters as part of the Congress. Is it also not telling that all of them broke off from the Congress simply because they did not want to become servants of the dynasty? An independent Sharad Pawar is able to negotiate better deals for himself with an equal standing to his ex-masters.
actually the sociology behind cinema is not at all simple. This would be my first point. But I’m not going to get into details here. For instance the degree to which an entire new Indian moment can be mapped onto SRK’s key films and so on. To get to your other point however again it’s simply a misunderstanding to start at the level of political parties and dynasties and what not and consider these the ‘origin’ of things rather than larger historical forces. The Congress was an umbrella party that contained all these various constituencies and which was also greatly helped by the prestige of giants. eventually and for reasons too complex to get into here the Congress could no longer contain all these disparate elements within itself. This wasn’t because people got bored of dynasties. Could they really be getting bored of something they indulge in at every level of their lives? We see this in cinema and we saw this as recently as the last election (nationally) and we see this in a number of state elections. The cinema example is again relevant. It is not just that stars throw their children at the audience. The latter is already interested in them. Which is why you never get actors who don’t belong to important parents getting comparable initials in their debuts, all else being equal. It’s not even close. The audience simply isn’t interested. The other thing to be said here is that everyone likes to selectively celebrate the ‘masses’. But presumably they don’t only speak when Narendra Modi is being elected. They also do so when the ‘Italian’ everyone hates is being chosen (or her family or whatever). At this point the ‘will of the majority’ is suddenly forgotten and she’s considered this illegitimate foreign import. Well if those voting thought this was so much of a problem presumably they wouldn’t have voted for the Congress at all in the past! But once more, and getting to the more critical point, the fragmentation of the Congress for more than a couple of decades now (whether they win or not they are not in the position they once were), the rise of caste politics (regional political parties were already very important in the South.. then there were other left forces in Bengal and Kerala to take two central examples), the rise of Hindutva, specially the last two since the mid-80s or so are linked to this fading of the Congress. This is once more about larger historical patterns. No personality could have kept these forces at bay for very long. One could argue that Indira Gandhi’s authoritarianism at very many levels was precisely a response to this already underway fragmentation. But the latter shouldn’t be understood democracy. It is simply about greater democracy. The problem once again is that one only supports democracy when the party one is a partisan of wins but considers everything else illegitimate whether it is left politics or caste parties or whatever. My argument against Modi isn’t that he’s somehow illegitimate, I know people are voting for him. But I have never considered the ‘masses’ to be a supreme principle whether in cinema or in politics. It all depends on what the contexts are. Otherwise the masses voted for Hitler too! Opposing someone on ideological grounds is very different from considering them illegitimate in the ‘democratically elected’ sense. In any case it’s a complete misunderstanding to think that these political parties have suddenly mushroomed or fallen out of the sky. All these moments are linked to the same historical forces. Put differently the idea that you could have a BJP rise without a simultaneous rise of caste politics (to take the obvious example) or that you could have a fading of Congress (again as it has taken place over more than two decades whether they’ve won or not) with the BJP simply supplanting it and nothing else happening is a fantasy. And it betrays one’s worldview. Why? because one might think there are only two options but clearly the political system offers a lot more. Coalition politics in this sense might be deeply frustrating but it again indexes the changing contours of the country. It isn’t about the fading of the Nehru-Gandhi dynasty or any other dynasty. Similarly once upon a time there was just the Congress at the national level and then there were regional parties. These things change and personalities cannot alter these tides of history though important figures can be pivotal in various ways. There can be a politician who is an ‘event’ which is to say hugely influential at a given historical moment but he does not create history all on his own. But inasmuch as there is still the possibility of absolute majorities it is much more likely to come more a more inclusive political vision, not a more divisive one. Of course one must also consider how a shift of a very few percentage points producers great numbers one way or the other in a parliamentary system. One shouldn’t pretend this is a presidential system with direct voting or something.
Sure talking-heads on TV say ridiculous things but it’s not as if the Modi partisans either in the media or on blogs are models of cool analysis and restraint!
Also, after a generation of caste-based parties that provided a sense of empowerment to the lower castes, many aspirational segments within them have gotten frustrated with their own leaderships. The Development-Governance Mantra by Modi has found resonance amongst them, and the results (if one goes by these polls) will prove that caste equations are indeed being broken. The problem with liberals is that they want to permanently stamp the ‘circa-1991 Hindutva bogeyman’ on the new BJP. They cannot fathom the fact that BJP has re-invented itself, while all the other parties have continued sleeping in their 1990 avatars.
whether Modi actually becomes PM or not, whether the BJP gets to one vote total or another I am fundamentally disturbed by the conditions in which such a result is even possible! So while I’d rather not have Modi win I wouldn’t necessarily be celebrating all the way if this happened (which of course seems very unlikely). But the other thing here is that I don’t know how many of his supporters will react if he for some reason did not become PM. When you have absolute certainty about these things and when the result is something else the road to conspiracy and paranoia is wide open. Then it’s about how someone or something has denied one victory. So I actually have a certain degree of nervousness about this scenario as well. But where I completely agree with the piece (and some others like it) is that in a parliamentary system quirky things sometimes happen and the media has played along with the ‘Modi is inevitable’ narrative. It’s also true that much of the BJP old guard which has been completely sidelined by Modi is really hope for a win but not an overwhelming one.
Vishal Dadlani (of the Vishal Shekhar duo) had this wonderful tweet where he said we have to choose between a moron and a murderer this time. Bold on his part since no one else from Bollywood says anything remotely as provocative.
When Satyam sir has to quote an asshole like Vishal Daldani to make his points, toh samjho Modi has arrived !!
wasiey this shows that a Gujju can go to any extent to get a Visa to the U.S.
yes I am frustrated because in that choice between the moron and the murderer I prefer the former! On contradictions I thought a Manmohan Desai fan would be sophisticated enough to appreciate these!
Then again what true Desai or Salim-Javed or masala fan ends up with Modi?! I am very serious. Now that is a real contradiction!
ha ha, Salim Khan already loves Modi !! Modi has taken the revenge in the most democratic and non violent way , so Desai would have loved him too, however commies always liked the naxals violent way !!
The irony Rocky is this — when it comes to Hindi cinema you are every bit the liberal that Akhtar is (this is different from being an academic or media ‘leftie’). I’d say the same for your tastes in popular culture in general. When it comes to politics it’s a different matter. There’s a contradiction here but I have always thought (if you allow the presumption) that your Hindi cinema tastes are closer to your core than your professed ideological leanings. And how does one build a bridge from one to the other? Precisely by accepting the Hindutva terms of the debate and confusing a militant political ideology with a much longer, much varied and infinitely richer ‘Hindu’ tradition. This is the old fascist trick people fall for. ‘Who’s for Germany’? Certainly not anyone ‘in’ Germany! But of course the question always is: how is Germany to be defined? Herein lies the trick. The fascist outfit erases all ‘tradition’ at the precise moment at which it claims to speak for tradition. To repeat once more the Dev example notice how Bachchan is the normative Hindu here who does his poojas and so forth while Om Puri is the militant Hindutva-type who does nothing of the sort. Bachchan is the Congress kind of voter there or the Desai fan or what have you whereas Om Puri is the classic Modi type. So you can certainly choose what side you wish to belong to. I am quite happy to be on Bachchan’s whether it’s about Dev or life offscreen! Of course the other point of ‘no compromise’ for me is the question of defining who or what a ‘Hindu’ is. I see myself as defending an extraordinary tradition in all its manifestations over millennia (of course the term ‘Hindu’ is debatable but that’s another matter) from this kind of fascist depredation. Here I don’t even see this as debatable. It is simply a question of facts. Precisely because a certain notion of being ‘Hindu’ is far too valuable and certain dear to my heart that I can never confuse it with the repulsive stuff Hindutva has brought forth on it. As I’ve said before today the ‘Hindu’ in the normative bourgeois sense has to be defended more than ever. It is the Bachchan figure of Dev who is sandwiched between a rock and a hard place. On the one hand the secular folks who distrust any mention of religion and on the other the Hindutva crowd that has no use for this sort of ‘moderate’ version. In many ways this is also the struggle globally in different religions. Islam is the obvious example but we see this in American Christianity too.
Thank Satyam for the kind words, however here is my response-
I like Modi precisely because of that – he has completely sidelined people like Ashok Snghal and Tagodias and has only concentrated on the development of Gujrat.
Not a single riot has happened during his rule. He is the first politician to win WITHOUT appeasing any one particular caste/ religion or state.
why is it necessary that to show your inclusiveness ( I will not use the word sickular) , everyone has to wear a topi?
He called for the army the day the riots broke, congress ruled states did not send in the army, but fault is his ?? come on !!
Now I am not naïve to deny that the there would have been some soft approach at that time , but it’s not as if he gave orders to go and kill the Muslims !!!
On the rest a lot of the Gujarat development thing is mired in mythology. There was that recent Outlook link I put up which compared the performance of many states in terms of economic development but also looking at other indices and the picture that emerged was very different from the Modi myth. What he has however done successfully is the equivalent of the ‘India Shining’ program or the Bollywood multiplex equivalent where progress equals shining highways in Ahmedabad or whatever and the key classes that vote for him then don’t care about the rest. Ramachandra Guha in a talk some months ago said that if you looked at all the numbers in the most comprehensive ways the three best run states in India were (in no order) TN, Kerala, Himachal. I could reproduce that Outlook link which had all those factoids on Gujarat but you wouldn’t accept that source anyway so I might as well not waste my energy! But I’m afraid like many you are subscribing to the Modi mythology. Which doesn’t of course mean that it’s all myth. But this idea that there’s no one like him in India is quite ridiculous. Much as Gujarat was in any case on a certain trajectory with or without him.
what I really resent is the appeasement of minorities and making fun of everything related to Hindus by the liberals like Outlook and Guhas.
This constant unglee I think has boomeranged on them.
I know that a lot of Modi supporters will be disappointed once they realize that he is going to not listen to the Looney elements. I hope his development and progress record will more than make up for that,
Well, I am in two minds. Would like to see how Modi will rule the country and what difference will he make.
I dont want to see a weak UPA 3 being blackmailed by mamata, pawar etc.
Third front will be a disaster.
was talking about making up yor mind to take a side, whatever side…..don’t need to worship , but yes respect it.
as Modi said in a very Salim Khan Dialogue way- Main topi naheen pehnoonga, lekin Topi uchalney waley ko chodoonga bhee nahin !!
what is wrong in that ????????
what made you think my mind wasn’t made up?! Analyzing a situation comprehensively doesn’t mean I have doubts about whether I want Modi in power or not!
Ab Modi ko bina proof key liberals ney Murdere announce kar diya, that when the Supreme Court of India has certified his innocence .
But commies and a. holes like kejriwal/ Dadlani hae never cared for the truth …
and while on Guha …read Sanjay Baru’s book – how the King of Liberals N. Ram changed his tune in the columns of the Hindu…..since he is a card carrying member of the Commie party !!
I’m no modi fan or hater..(haven’t been following this @ all)
But let’s give the guy some credit
& In a country where every second politician is supposed to have a criminal record. Why are people crying (w)horse over modis ‘sin’ repeatedly as if the others are all innocent virgins…
And where are all those anti modi voices hiding now?
Are they still doing election propaganda??
Come out n smell the koffee!
Modi is poised to be the next pm of your country –elected democratically –accept n deal with it
Ps: I’m no modi supporter (infact I don’t support any political party)-actually I don’t believe in ‘democracies’ lol
The ineptitude of the Congress was displayed in the series of self-goals they scored in this election.
They cried hoarse while downplaying the Guj model, but could not convince anyone. Simple fact is that UP/Bihar sends thousands of migrant laborers to Guj, and these people go back home with true stories of Guj shining. All the spin and #s thrown by Cong etc could not hide the fact. No one claims that Ahmedabad is Shanghai, but it is way better than Lucknow/Patna. That relative comparison is all that people need to believe.
They cried hoarse about Modi’s child-marriage, especially Diggi. Result: wiping off of egg when Diggi’s own child-marriage (ie extra-marital affair with a woman who is younger than his two elder daughters) gets revealed!!
They cried hoarse about Snoopgate. Result: the woman in question petitioned Supreme Court for privacy, AND NCP/NC bullied them to withdraw the case.
They cried hoarse about his caste, claiming that he got his own caste included into the OBC list after he became CM. Result: The facts stated that a Cong CM, in 1994, had included Modh-Ghanchi caste in OBC list.
So yes, a party led by a moron did display moronicity. A party led by a murderer did go in for the kill at every step of the way.
And a party led by a Bhagoda (ie Kejriwal) kept running around the nation in circles, wasting tons of media time, money, resources, etc all in a vain attempt to unseat the Moron-Murderer. AAP may set a record for max # of seat deposits lost in an election.
Let’s give modi a chance, you won’t know for sure until he becomes PM.
My only fear is if Gujarat is the model that he will use, then the answer is NO to all of your question above as well as the gap will widen between hindu/muslim.
Just because there’s no riots inpast 10 years in gujrat doesn’t mean hinu/muslim are holding hands and getting along well. it just means modi has ensured hindus won’t do anything and muslims will not do anything knowing what they went thru during godhra riots.
Think of Isreal/Palestine, there’s no true riots there but we all know what the situation is. Gujarat has been heading in that direction for past 10 to 15 years including employment, housing, etc…
For all I know, the other states could be far worse but since i’m not from that state, i don’t know the ground situation.
I’m sure there won’t be any riots if modi is the pm because he has to clear his image thru out the world.
Just to clear up on your 3 questions above, you can’t blame modi or any pm for it. Indian people has to change. The famous dialogue from Gangaajal, Jaise log, waise government…
Unfortunately such neglect produces unplanned for & undesired consequences. For examples, for years & decades there had been a lot of resentment that minoritieS (Capital S), are being “left behind”. This resentment produced an unintended consequence, The Naxalites/Maoist Movement. Now tell me who is “winning” ? Is the country better off or worse ?
If the Gujarat model is applied to India, all we will get is a Madison Avenue produced PR video clip of fake progress. In reality the country will crawl towards anarchy. If Modi wins, then that will be a tipping point in the favor of the Maoist. India will not gain but most definitely enrollment for the Maoist Movement will increase.
Such a great moment seeing tragic frustrated public meltdown of ‘Libtards’ and Sickulars… LOL….
What gives them burns and intense heat is “Modi winning on his own terms” and all their efforts to demonize, vilify him by Lutyens club for last 12 years failed…
As I say and seen, so called libtards are most extreme fundamentalist and exhibit ‘Extreme intolerance’
When A.hole Vishal dadlani is quoted to make a point, know one lost the war as well as battle…
As I predicted, the leftists/liberals/appeasers etc etc are already going paranoid with illogical doomsday scenarios.
Who says that Muslims in Gujarat have not progressed? Just last month, I was at a IT unit in Ahmedabad, which had more than 15% Muslim programmers, proudly working side by side with people from other religions. It was a sight to see, 300 programmers, in all types of attires: girls in jeans, shalwars or sarees. Guys in western formal/casual, or even kurtas, and the Muslims proudly wearing their skullcaps. Now this is in Ahmedabad, and these were educated folks making competitive salaries.
People who have never been to Gujarat cast such false and silly aspersions, almost like the Tea Party Birthers. One should not speculate without having seen the commercial activities there. All these armchair fear-mongers have not traveled on the roads there, lived without fear, seen girls travelling alone at night without fear. People of Gujarat are not stupid to vote for Modi 3 times in a row. The guy delivered. But the naysayers will forever hoist the yoke of 2002 on his shoulders.
None of it matters anyway, this guy is going to deliver for India, and all the naysayers will be scurrying around once again in 5 yrs, trying to find reasons to bring him down. They will never remove their hatred, even if the guy converts India to a developed country. He is autocratic, ego maniacal, and hellbent on creating a positive legacy. He will achieve it, just wait and watch.
Once again, selective cut-paste pictures. I would like to know if there is any place in India which is a utopia for any community, just not Muslims. Every community has rich and poor. The poor uneducated Indians are all living in hellish conditions, not just Muslims.
The plight of the riot-hit Muslims of Gujarat is not any less than the plight of the Kashmiri Pandits in refugee camps. So why does anyone not highlight that? It is not less than the plight of every wave of refugees that made their way into India after partition. But everyone worked hard, and came out of it.
Secluded living neightbourhoods? Dont tell me that Congress rules states do not have the same issues. Mumbai is the biggest example, where selective housing takes place. So why is Reuters only pointing to Gujarat?
I mean seriously, any discussion has to be fair and balanced. These articles do not point out anything that is already not prevalent in other parts of India.
The thing is that ‘ideology’ can often push one into a kind of blindness where the commitment matters more than anything else. Or put differently all ethical questions are sacrificed to this commitment. I am a great Obama supporter. This doesn’t mean I think that Drones don’t kill anyone. Nor do I justify these actions by suggesting that Bush was worse or whatever. Now I was never naive enough to believe that an American president no matter how ‘kind’ wasn’t also the leader of an empire (more or less) and had to engage in certain kinds of actions. But whatever the realistic picture here might be it shouldn’t stop even an Obama supporter from raising some of these questions. In the same vein my support for Obama isn’t unconditional. I could conceive of things which would make me turn away from him completely.
All over the world and at different points in history there have been extraordinary acts of violence in which minorities or even pluralities were targeted based on religion or ethnicity or class or whatever. The entire 20th century (just to restrict oneself to the recent past) offers awful testimony to all this. And the extremes have happened on both sides of the political divide. But whether it’s the Turkish massacre of Armenians a century ago, the Nazi camps or even more recently the awful violence in Argentina in the 70s or Indonesia in the 60s, whether it’s the genocidal actions of the Pakistan army in the East, the plight of Kashmiri pandits, on and and on, in each case and in every corner of the globe where such actions have taken place my sympathy for the victims is exactly the same and I have always spoken about these instances in the most comprehensive ways imaginable. Because it is to my mind the greatest obscenity in the world to bargain over who the greater victims are or to enter into this calculus where one recognizes victims only to the extent that some other victims are so recognized elsewhere. An equal obscenity is the kind of ideological commitment that forces one to pretend not to see the obvious. In just about any of these instances of violence who did what is hardly a mystery. But in each case those who don’t like the truth offer exactly these sorts of excuses — conspiracy theories (how everyone is against them), the lack of evidence theory (no one knows what really happened), the self-defense (‘they’ did it first or ‘they’ did worse). Every such crime in more than a century has been defended using all of these tactics. One could change the words and the same statements could easily be valid for all these situations. So no I am not confused about what happened to Kashmiri Pandits and who did it, nor am I confused about what happened in East pakistan, nor Argentina in the 70s, nor Rwanda, nor in ’84 Delhi, nor in the 2002 Gujarat of Narendra Modi. The butchers might be Muslims or Hindus or Christians or whatever, one ethnic group or another, one class or another, one caste or another, the victims similarly might belong to one or more of these groups. My response is still the same: I don’t feel the need to negotiate these things. Because it is bad faith (and perhaps a bad conscience) to play this game. I am willing to put it as bluntly as this. Differently still ‘naiveté’ is not an excuse. I fully know that people who have such ideological commitments don’t really appreciate what they’re committing themselves to. And furthermore they protect themselves from the truth by resorting to such excuses. But ‘naiveté’ once again is no defense. At some point one has to ask oneself this question: is one’s commitment to a political name greater than one’s commitment (presumably) to a sense of the moral or ethical that transcends any precise politics? This ultimately is the question. We can play games all day long, blame others, blame the media, the other side does the very same, not just in this situation but every other. Everyone has the same logic, the same excuses, the same means of evading responsibility. There’s nothing new in all of this.
The suggestions that are made by supporters of Modi regarding his role (or lack thereof) in 2002 are insulting to the intelligence besides being reprehensible in other ways. But these are the very same things that Pakistanis say about their role in the East, this is the very thing everyone says in such situations. There is never ‘clear evidence’, there are always conspiracies afoot, the victims are always somehow the original perpetrators, on and on. Over the last century or more there are tons of such instances and in every instance the excuses remain the same. And all of these folks consider their arguments to be ‘fair and balanced’. Because I have been among other things a student of these very dark history and the respective ideologies I unfortunately know rather too well what I’m talking about.
People might be targeted as Hindus or Muslims or Christians or what have you but they suffer only as ‘humans’. Those labels don’t give them any greater defense when they’re murdered or raped or tortured or brutalized in the most unimaginable ways. And it’s unfortunate that we forget precisely that ‘humanity’ in pursuit of these ideological commitments. Even if one Hindu family were attacked somewhere in Gujarat by a Muslim mob wishing to take some sort of revenge and even if that Hindu family were supportive of Modi I would still find the violence (the attack on them by the Muslim mob) completely unacceptable. This is not about being idealistic (though I am not afraid of being idealistic either). One’s commitment in these matters must be absolute or it is not worth anything.
I concur with you on all points. However, name one political setup in India today which is untarnished. Except perhaps for AAP. The choices are limited to murderous elements on all sides, and the voters have alternated their choice this time.
If and when AAP becomes mature enough to truly represent the nation, provided they also stay untarnished, maybe then people will vote for AAP en masse.
just because everyone is tarnished doesn’t mean everyone is tarnished in the very same way. Just as every politician is not equally corrupt every political party does not have equal blood on its hands. Since there aren’t ideal choices in life one has to choose (as far as I’m concerned) the more inclusive vision. Or perhaps opt for the third option or whatever. Even within the same party everyone is not the same. Again when we refuse to make these choices we over-generalize and say everyone is equally guilty. Which of course still begs the question ‘why did one choose one kind of guilty over another?’
Incidentally I am not at all a fan of Congress. And it’s not just today. I consider for instance Indira Gandhi’s impact to be quite disastrous in many ways. But it’s a question of the choice one has. If a political party goes after minorities almost as a platform position, whether these minorities are religious ones or ethnic ones or immigrants or what have you, I can never support such a party. They all have excuses as to why they’re getting tough on these groups and I reject all of them! Put differently I have never seen a situation where such attitudes had any serious relation to the facts. It is always about politics, not about facts on the ground. in any given situation. But then it could be that being an immigrant in the US I have a vested interest in believing that the Republicans don’t have facts on their side! Some of my friends here who are also in a similar situation perhaps have different assurances from the same!
and to be clear when I refer to the ‘facts’ I don’t mean larger economic or political debates but the empirical claims these parties make when targeting one minority or another. In this latter situation the facts are never on their side.
Tom being Friday counting shld be discontinued to enable Muslim counting agents hv their Friday namaz but amethi admin is refusing d same.
— Adv. Somnath Bharti: इंसानियत से बड़ा कुछ नहीं! (@attorneybharti) May 15, 2014
People who don’t want election duty should ask to be excused on religious ground themselves instead of someone pointing them that they could do something like this.
By the extension of your logic, if you have to make gross personal attacks on anyone who opposes your beliefs , then I think you are just winning in the sense that Charlie Sheen understands “winning”.
Let me give you one problem with a potential Modi win. If Modi wins then India becomes worse than Afghanistan. At least even in Afghanistan the Taliban is considered as an Outlaw Organization. On the other hand, in India it appears that the insane are about to take over the asylum.
Progress is impossible without change, and those who cannot change their minds cannot change anything and in this spirit of change, Modi’s victory is definitely a welcome sign. Status quo would be totally unacceptable and let’s be honest; there was no suitable alternative to BJP/Modi. On the national level a Kejriwal is too small a fry to bring about this change and that too in such a short time. But he is the perfect antidote for Indian politics and his presence will always do well to India.
Just from business point of view, we should welcome Modi as India has failed to move to 2nd stage of development due to governmental inadequacies. Since the business brigade favors him a lot he should utilize their good will in doing something special and long lasting. Secondly there has to be simply an end to the dynastic rule and this is a welcome step anyway one looks at it. Too bad if Congress does not want to give a chance to anyone else within the party and its all about Gandhis. Rahul Gandhi was such a national shame and displayed his incompetency adequately to one and all. I know from certain quarters he is in Yankee/ westernized mode mostly and a bit into Coke too and politics is just thrust upon him. All doscos worldwide should be ashamed of such a product coming out of this institution and openly displaying amateurishness though we understand he was there for a short while only. At any level Priyanka would be a much grounded and real politician but her marriage to Vadhra and all that is all mystery……?? of course a violent history in the family is not easy to follow but then why not declutch from politics completely and give someone within the party a chance.
On Modi its time to’ walk the talk’ and most importantly how he will handle corruption
which is ailing the Indian economy and general mindset of the haves from the ’haves and have nots’ brigade . Yesterday there was a picture released of a close door meeting of top 4 in BJP sitiing on a sofa and there he was my pet hate the corrupt mother fcuker Nitin Gadkari… so don’t have much hope.
Unless Modi is strong on corruption things will remain same or get worse. He would really need to tend to UP/ Bihar belt immediately as he seems to have got the max support from them in this election. But this is also a section which gets easily aggrieved/ annoyed /disgruntled. This sections also houses the troublemakers in Mulayam, Mayawati, Laloo and now Nitish…in simple words if he acts tough on them, they will fcuk him royally…so amit shah has a lot on his hand….
On minorities, Modi should be a welcome sign and like the earlier BJP government he would be softer than normal and may try to court them….something which Vajpayee and Advani did but paid a price. From the majorities. Modi wave is mostly a anti muslim wave in India and that is a fact…
All in all interesting time but definitely a good change for Indian politics.
Rocky – I have always respected reasonable stance wherever stated. Like many I too am unhappy with the way things turned for worse in the last 2 years or so. I simply hope Modi is able to stem the rot though due to nation’s diversity it’s a tough call and it would need a master crafter to rule and win all.
I firmly believe until Mandal / Babri happened this ‘present generation’ would not be able to differentiate between one another and VP Singh singlehandedly took us to the dark ages. Somewhere I read patriots always talk of dying for their country, and never of killing for their country.
The most important thing I should like to be able to love my country and still love justice and that’s why I prefer Dhonisque kind of thoughts in real life.
Very apt article for this discussion:
”
I don’t want to hear the same old secularism versus communalism diatribe not because I don’t want our country to be secular but because yes, without these diatribes our country is already secular (in fact it has remained the most secular country or region throughout millennia). And second, by continuously pandering to minority vote, our political parties have developed a mindset that you only need to offer empty promises and raise doomsday scenarios in order to come to power. Development doesn’t work. Progress doesn’t excite. It’s caste and religion. Minorities are under threat. Dalits are being marginalized and exploited.
I’m not saying minorities shouldn’t be protected and the rights of the Dalits shouldn’t be protected. But the justice system should work for everybody — not just for minorities and Dalits. If our justice system works, if our political system works, if our bureaucracy works, we don’t need affirmative action. We don’t need special status for minorities if development is inclusive and people are punished in a timely manner in case of communal bias.
You cannot constantly blame the majority Hindu community for historical wrongs its forefathers may or may not have committed on certain sections. Historical wrongs were committed against Hindus themselves so then why aren’t Muslims made to feel guilty about them (there, I just became an Islamophobe)? I’m not saying they should be, I’m just saying if the blame game needs to be perpetuated, why not create an equal playing field for every religion and every community?
This is the mentality that Modi opposes, and so do his supporters. These people get angry when they are made to feel apologetic about their majority status, about their festivals, about their rituals, about their gods and goddesses, about their patriotism and nationalism and about their “the nation first” approach. They’re fed up with the pervasive mediocrity in almost every field in the name of inclusion and tolerance. They want excellence. They want to compete with the world and when they talk about competition, they don’t mean competition with Sri Lanka, Pakistan, Bangladesh or even Taiwan. They mean competition with the USA, with the European Union, with Japan and with China.
“
IMO, chickens are being counted before being hatched. There just might be a nasty surprise for the Indian markets in here. They have become so overbought, a selloff might be in order. Nothing like some blown exit polls for a good seloff excuse.
best news to happened if smriti beats rahul gandhi …will be biggest upset
one of the best orator in indian political scenes currenltly and has the potential to replace sushwa swaraj though have to admit kumar vishwas is not bad and equally good in oratory skills
rahul gandhi is allready out of country …lets see if he wins in amethi or not
end of gandhis, nitish kumar and arvind kejriwal in terms of there political career
highest ever tally since 1977 barring 1984 when indira was killed and ironically was the year when bjp started with just 2 seats
16 may 1996 was when atal bihari vajpayee was sworn in as 10th prime minister and on 16th may another auspicious news in making
chetan bhagat in revolution 2020: change will begin with varanasi
amitabh bachchan some year back in original don ( which stamped him as numero uno with the song chora ganga kinare wala in reference to varanasi and in 2014 its namo with varanasi)
BJP with 69 seats in UP! Sweeps Guj, Raj, Delhi, MP, Maharahstra. Achieves majority 275+ seats on its own! First time since 1984!!
This kind of result could not have been achieved without huge participation from all castes and minorities. There is no other way this can be explained. All the Modi-haters need to take notice. An entire nation has given a solid mandate to Modi. They trust him, they believe him. Muslims have voted for Modi in UP-Bihar. BJP has won more than 50% of seats in areas with more than 30% of Muslim populations, where they never broke past 20% of the seats.
Congress probably ends with less than 55 seats (and perhaps does not even get leader of opposition status!!). The Gandhi family is finished. Modi has done it, he has made India into a Congress-free country. May 16, 2014 is our Second Independence, free from Nehru-Gandhi rule. Hope Rahul just packs his bags and migrates to Italy for good now.
But it is still extremely difficult to respect a person who has yet to show regret for the Gujarat riots.
There will be a new dawn in India, when a person will be free and equal regardless of race, religion, gender etc. Today is a dark hour, but they say it is the darkest just before dawn.
SATYAMSHOT
April 17, 2014 at 7:38 AM
A Conversation With: Author Sanjaya Baru
http://india.blogs.nytimes.com/2014/04/16/a-conversation-with-author-sanjaya-baru/?_php=true&_type=blogs&_php=true&_type=blogs&_php=true&_type=blogs&_r=2&
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April 17, 2014 at 7:49 AM
http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/Home/Lok-Sabha-Elections-2014/News/Sanjaya-Baru-a-political-turncoat-Karat/articleshow/33834599.cms
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April 17, 2014 at 7:53 AM
I am saddened and very angry. Armed forces and Bollywood are India’s two most secular institutions. Mr. Anjum Rajabali and his ilk, in their obsession with Modi-hate have betrayed the film industry. I am sorry your appeal has obfuscated us more than enlightening.
I have few questions and I am sure you would like to answer to help me help India.
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April 17, 2014 at 1:27 PM
http://www.niticentral.com/2014/04/16/why-the-west-finds-modis-rise-inconvenient-212384.html
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April 17, 2014 at 4:51 PM
Kashyap is upset with the BJP for using a song from Gulaal.
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April 17, 2014 at 5:39 PM
I’m glad there is no jhaadu in the picture. It’s not a game of chance with AAP. It’s sheer hardwok. Toiling against innumerable obstacles.
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April 18, 2014 at 4:16 AM
The real fight is between BJP and Congress. Both are corrupt and both use communal and caste politics. But atleast they govern. They are not afraid to take responsibility and brickbats.
If BJP comes to power, V.K.Singh will become defence minister and he will have the last laugh.
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April 18, 2014 at 7:33 AM
Thats a pretty sweeping, cynical, unfair
Statement. Corruption in Gujarat is nowhere near Congress or their allies’ governed states.
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April 18, 2014 at 7:59 AM
I am not talking about corruption in gujarat. Corruption at an all india level. With some congressmen joining BJP and Modi’s softness towards Pawar and Jayalalitha, it seems corruption is not an issue for them.
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April 18, 2014 at 9:47 AM
To become king, a person will do any thing. Just like aurangzeb, an austere man, killed his own siblings, put his own father in prison. Yes, no nepotism, no corruption but only hungry for power. Join hands with enemies, sacrifice friends.
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April 18, 2014 at 9:49 AM
In the name of his religion.
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April 19, 2014 at 2:53 AM
aurangzeb… bjp and congress are same bla bla …ab kuch bacha nahi hai
modi and jayalalita are soft on each other and contesting has allready caused hearburn to congressi supporters as it negeted dmk and congress alliances..jaya was the one the first few who endorsed him as pm way back when nobody did …question to be asked why congress is soft on dmk after 2g
did chidambaram won his court case on election…why he had to run this time
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April 18, 2014 at 12:12 PM
Where is Anna Hazare? Why he is being sidelined by almost all though they are the beneficiaries of his movement?
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April 18, 2014 at 5:11 PM
You still talking of him? LOL: He made such a fool of himself with the supposed list he sent to all CM’s which was ONLY replied by Mamta. He had supposedly listed out points on which he asked if the states would carry out.
Well, there was a brief period of ‘honeymoon’ (?) where they praised each other, and Anna was all praise for her Rs15 sarees, and chappals and austere life. That he was fixing her to support Modi (put up by the bJP) was clear.
Anyway he invited her to set up candidates in Delhi belonging to her prty. Biswajeet was among the first to be chosen. Remember the actor? Yes, he. I think they hoped to challenge AAP and cut their votes, banking oin Anna.
Then a big rally was organised in Ramlila Grounds. He flew in from his home town. Got into his car. Drove to the grounds – only 2000 people and a whole lot of empty chairs.
He went back and left Mamta at the ‘altar’ sitting alone (I mean with the chamchas).
At irst excuses were given he’s unwell. Then it came out he was complaining that Mamta didn’t do things well. He had drawn thousands to the same ground. It was all her fault. So it all ended.
She went back and he went back.
Lately I heard he was giving support to some LS candidates for LS and AAP’s Medha Patkar is one.
VSingh left him to fight from Gaziabad on BJP ticket. It is rumoured Bedi will fight against AK for DElhi CM. Anyway she decalred her support to bJP a long time ago.
He refused to come and join AAP inspite o being asked many times in the beginning. The movement was IMO always a shadow BJPsupported and with AK forming his party it spoilt their plans.
I don’t feel one bit sorry for him being left alone. AK would have been the only loyal one if he hadn^started to feel jealous.
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April 19, 2014 at 12:10 AM
http://www.niticentral.com/2014/04/18/pune-evms-favour-congress-1-lakh-voters-disappear-from-lists-213512.html
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April 19, 2014 at 12:18 AM
Even evms have a mind of their own, it seems. Dont worry. It will be fixed as no party will keep quiet.
Missing voters may not be all BJP voters. They might have voted for other parties too. It is Election Commission’s mistake which is an independent body.
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April 19, 2014 at 2:57 AM
http://www.sunday-guardian.com/analysis/friend-father-a-philosopher-of-black-money-is-chidambaram
chidambaram is lawyer and yet to sue to jethmalani..
this is in open sunday guardian article
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April 19, 2014 at 2:59 AM
http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/india/Swamy-seeks-CVC-probe-into-Vadra-land-deal/articleshow/33755305.cms
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April 19, 2014 at 12:19 AM
Anna Hazare was helped by media and others. But the same media found a better man Kejriwal and started to promote him. Ultimately the media settled for Modi.
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April 21, 2014 at 10:35 AM
That is what media says. They like to think they made him.
They boycotted AAP for 9 months after AK spoke against Ambani early last year.
He is the only party leader who gave interviews without first ‘fixing’ it. No pre examined questions etc – and they loved interviewing him.
Mostly negative news on TV and newspapers – flats – slaps – eggs – ink – black flags – FIRs
Or debates on topics like ‘Has AAP lost the steam?
BUT no news of the huge spontaneous rallies in Punjab, the Sangrur one being 10Km long without any organising effort, which took everyone by surprise. So you had BDutt interviewing public in Amritsar about who they think they’d like to vote, and everytime anyone said AAP candidate she passed comments like ‘he has no chance’ ‘he’s not in the running at all’ .
As of today the media follows Modi because they HAVE to.
Ambani owns them all mostly.
Did you see that joke ‘Aap Ki Adalat’ with Modi? Shameless a”*ç+%=?&g.
There’s zero support for AAP on any media. No one is condemning the gunda threats in Varanasi where campaigning is not allowed by them. They come in hordes and shout like zombies modi modi modi modi…….
Candidates are being beaten up left right and centre one is in ICU. The media gives the news as if it was a jharap from both sides.
I could go on and on with these kinds of stories.
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April 21, 2014 at 10:38 AM
The beating up was not in Varanasi. It was in another place I’d never heard of. Some small town.
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April 19, 2014 at 5:59 PM
“Well, there was a brief period of ‘honeymoon’ (?) where they praised each other, and Anna was all praise for her Rs15 sarees, and chappals and austere life”— haha thanx for the entertaining anecdotes-didn’t know these entertaining anecdotes–btw how dya know this detail lol
Btw apparently heard Rahul caught modis ‘wife’—
Hmmm those who live in glass houses..
Where’s Rahuls Columbian girlfriend nowadays ?…
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April 21, 2014 at 10:42 AM
Well AAP has no media support nor the money to pay for ads and hoardings etc so they have started a whole lot of fb pages, some are official and a whole lot from supporters and that’s the only place I go to get news of AAP. I’ve stopped watching any channels live streamed on computer. So of course one gets a lot of news from the various links these fb pages provide.
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April 19, 2014 at 2:42 AM
people who are not politically aware can say anything but the thing is people like swamy have filed cases and questioned cases on evm and now things are coming out
question to be asked why ex election commission people got plum post and jobs and some are contesting as elections…these are facts
people are aware and know things
in delhi lot of people also voted for kejriwal for cm and modi for pm acknowledged by kejriwal saying them as minority
before anna hazare there was ramdev’s anshan and brutal attack on him by congress in delhi which damaged everything and nirbhaya was the last coffin with sheila’s comment
india against corruption founding members where anna hazare and kiran bedi and there have been groundword created for last 3 years and ya a delhi has realised there mistake with new foster child of congress which will be evident with lok sabha result
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April 21, 2014 at 10:45 AM
In Gurgaon more than 100 booths were compromised by BJP goons and the complaint has been lodged to EC and they have replied that they will look into it.
An Assam EVM sent votes to BJP. So BJP is not really such a victim in these polls. They have plenty of clout. I’m expecting rigging by them in Varanasi.
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April 19, 2014 at 2:46 AM
early morning voters, including many senior citizens, were bewildered when an electronic voting machine (EVM) reportedly “transferred” all votes to the Congress.
The incident happened at a polling booth at Shamrao Kalmadi School in the city when voters found that whichever button was pressed on the EVM, only the Congress light blinked.
Some of the alert voters brought this to the notice of the election officials who stopped voting immediately.
“The Election Commission authorities have ordered a new machine for this particular polling booth which is expected to come soon,” said local BJP activist Madhur Sahasrabuddhe.
The poll panel has also decided to permit around 28 voters who had already cas
(why this became true) when it was supposed to be rant just like how main stream media was laughing and ridiculing the same pesron when he was filing 2g cases and said time and again it would be a big loot
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April 19, 2014 at 5:20 PM
Machine fails to register AAP votes!!!
http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/home/lok-sabha-elections-2014/news/Voting-machine-fails-to-register-AAP-votes-in-Kochi/articleshow/33548653.cms
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April 20, 2014 at 8:41 AM
At Mewat in Gurgaon dist., Haryana, voting was a total farce, with haryanvi thondas/bullys managing to let all votes fall into bjp hands. Check out on google.
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April 21, 2014 at 9:43 AM
awww, LS did has no comment on the English speaking gunda Mani Shankar who wants to topple ( yes topple) the democratically elected Govt. or for the other sophisticated Shahshi Tharoor whose wife was found dead in mysterious circumstances…
but that is all O.K., they are not Ganwaars like Modi or his supporters na !!
So predictable ………………..
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April 21, 2014 at 9:52 AM
LS, please also google the hate speech of Yogi Yadav, where he said that in a Muslim Ilaka kee Desh mein aag lag jaayegee..
also please google that Keju refused to chant Vande Matram and Bharat mata kee jai in front of Muslms..
But then, people like you probably agree with all this anyways…
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April 21, 2014 at 9:55 AM
tcommies are like NYT and other western publications- Godhra – no one knows who killed the passengers- lekin yeh Pucca hai kee Gujrat mein Muslims ko Modi ney maara hai…Bhaag saala !!
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April 21, 2014 at 2:55 PM
Mewat gundagard voting
We are going to get gunda raj if these Modi Bjp types win.
http://www.firstpost.com/politics/who-really-voted-in-mewat-probe-on-after-complaints-of-bogus-voting-1488913.html
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April 21, 2014 at 3:45 AM
Resident Keralites – Is the lady right?
http://www.hindustantimes.com/elections2014/opinion/while-gujarat-is-investor-friendly-kerala-triumphs-in-social-indices/article1-1210341.aspx
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April 21, 2014 at 10:19 AM
Can you imagine the outrage that would have ensued if a publisher with a right-of-centre ideological bent had dared do what Navayana did to an author who criticised Modi or wrote something that would have got khakhi knickers all a-twist? The muted criticism of Navayana is almost akin to deafening silence, in contrast.
Instead, there are too-clever-by-half attempts at sophistry, drawing distinctions between right wing and left wing intimidation. What happened to Wendy Doniger’s book was censorship, we are told; this is only a publisher exercising his right to freedom to publish only certain kinds of authors. So, here is a publisher saying his decision to publish a book will be determined not by its contents but by the political views of its author. That’s not censorship? Anand is not a left-wing Dinanath Batra, the self-appointed guardian of Hindu history? Seriously?
http://www.firstpost.com/blogs/navyana-controversy-why-lefts-intellectual-bullying-wont-work-now-1487389.html
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April 21, 2014 at 11:19 AM
I am interested about Sharad Pawar and his games. Mamata Banerjee, PDP and Jayalalitha.
And Modi’s emissaries alleged meeting with Geelani and approaching Bismillah Khan’s family for support or whatever. While they talk about appeasement, they dont mind it if it helps them.
The ads on tv scream vote for modi, not vote for BJP. Once modi gets the power and control, there will be scramble for crumbs.
Long live the King while the Party is comatose.
While Giriraj singh and Pravin Togadiya are spoiling the party by their statements.
Will the real BJP stand upto this personality cult which is reaching monstrous proportions? Or they are happy with the crumbs?
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April 21, 2014 at 11:49 AM
Till yesterday the so called real BJP was communal for the elite , ab uskee bahut yaad aa rahee hai….
Modi said in Aap kee Adalat- Jisney mijhe banaya ussko main kya bannoonga, he said at ANI- kya bachcha kabhee Maa sey bada ho sakta hai ?
lekinn kuch logo ko yeh baat samajh nahee aayegee…
Bhago Bhagodey key peechey !!!
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April 21, 2014 at 11:58 AM
and the fact that Modi has made Togadiya insignificant for so long is not mentioned by Libtards,
some tweets-
Vijay @centerofright · 13h
Interesting that libtards who supported Togadia during Guj Elxns in 2012 as he opposed Modi now using his stmts 🙂
Barbarian Indian @barbarindian · 1h
I see no difference between Prof. Varshney/ Ram Guha and Togadia – language/ semantics aside
rupa subramanya @rupasubramanya · Apr 20
Masood(INC) threatens to cut Modi into pieces: Reax:not speaking for INC.Yet with Giriraj Singh (BJP):Reax: everyone in BJP crazy like him.
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April 21, 2014 at 1:49 PM
Modi aayega aayega aaayega ..
Inn libtards ki band bhajayega … 😀
Its Joy to see tragic public meltdown of left liberals and sickulars from Eminent Distorian Ram Guha to rabid souls like Ranna Ayub, Mihir and list is endless and few here also…..
Unpacking of libtards echo system has begun….
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April 21, 2014 at 4:26 PM
Paglika is leading the pack…
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April 21, 2014 at 1:17 PM
Tagodia is not in good terms with Modi. In last state assembly election he kind of helped Congress.
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April 21, 2014 at 4:26 PM
Munna sir, aapkey Shehar mein kya ground report hai??
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April 22, 2014 at 12:50 PM
I guess you want to know about Varanasi? In laws say Modi will win easily. I have been observing elections from here which is far from ground. But with advent of twitter, facebook these elections are more quarrelsome. My facebook feed is filled with pro Modi and pro AAP people. I rarely find a congress supporters. If there are, they have become supporter of other parties.
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April 22, 2014 at 1:16 PM
Naa…I wanted to know about this – LOL!!
In fact, there are two second-generation Indian-American candidates — Khanna and Republican Vanila Singh — running to unseat longtime incumbent Congressman Mike Honda, a third-generation Japanese-American, in California’s 17th District, which sits in the heart of the Silicon Valley. It’s one of only two districts in the country where Asian-Americans make up the majority. The other’s in Hawaii
http://www.npr.org/blogs/codeswitch/2014/04/21/299055627/in-asian-majority-district-house-race-divides-calif-voters
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April 22, 2014 at 1:19 PM
that is the sense I am getting from Varanasi…..let’s hope Modi retains Varanasi as his seat and does something for the city.
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April 21, 2014 at 2:10 PM
It will be BJP, UPA or third front. But Sharad Pawar will be the constant factor in any of these governments. He will always belong to the ruling party.
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April 21, 2014 at 2:39 PM
Bogus elections!!
http://indianexpress.com/article/india/politics/78-pc-turnout-but-few-can-show-ink-mark/
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April 21, 2014 at 11:25 PM
Praveen Togadia is like Beni Prasad. Embarrassing the party. While Muthalik is a serious menace.
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April 22, 2014 at 7:12 AM
Real face of Aam Aadmi Party -communal face- in South Mumbai on the campaign trail- Asking voters to be communal while voting
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April 22, 2014 at 11:07 AM
She’s being reprimanded by the party for this – don’t worry.
This is neither a hate speech like so many recently BJP goons, nor is it of appeasement. She should choose her words carefully. Too immature and stupid for my liking. But yes BJP is trying its best to make it look like some big issue and divert the heat from its own hate communal speeches on to AAP.
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April 22, 2014 at 2:06 PM
“This is neither a hate speech like so many recently BJP goons, nor is it of appeasement. ”
I too would like to buy a pair of your rose-tinted glasses. You have succinctly demonstrated the typical AAP koolaid drinker, point fingers at everyone else, but will never accept blame.
Maana hain AAP behud haseen,
Lekin bure hum bhi nahi.
AAPka Khoon Khoon, aur hamara khoon paani.
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April 23, 2014 at 10:13 AM
Come on NyKavi. Just for the sake of getting your knife into AAP don’t get so blind.
Even the BJP vice president has said this was a silly irresponsible way of speaking.
AAP is against mixing religion in politics and this is unacceptable even when said sarcastically.
You seriously think this can be compared to BJP hate speeches?
Now I’m really scared after what Shazia said. I’m waiting fearfully for the day when muslims come waving their ballot papers at me. *shiver* shiver*
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April 23, 2014 at 10:45 AM
yeh Duniya Peetal dee, mere Raja, Main hoon Baby doll soney kee !!!!!
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April 24, 2014 at 8:39 PM
Shazia was immature and silly, not ironical and funny. One can afford to speak in this ironical manner when in private, but not at an event that’s being video recorded. Irresponsible of her. But she certainly isn’t anywhere near the tone of many virulent and scary bjp speechmakers.
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April 22, 2014 at 12:04 PM
LOL!!
Immature? she is a Journalist..
Why did Keju refuse to sing Vande Matram and Bharat Mata kee Jai in front of Muslims ???
This is the real face of PAAP…..
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April 23, 2014 at 10:15 AM
>Why did Keju refuse to sing Vande Matram and Bharat Mata kee Jai in front of Muslims ???
Is that your yardstick of measuring a person’s worth?
No wonder!!!
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April 23, 2014 at 10:35 AM
Is that your yardstick of measuring a person’s worth? spoken !
wow, really No wonder !!
Absolutely.. India First !!
of course for people like Keju and Bhushan it’s Ford first..
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April 23, 2014 at 10:17 AM
Meanwhile enjoy this LOL!!
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April 25, 2014 at 5:24 AM
hats off to muslim guy who uploaded it… and so called gawars give certain facts to brain dead zombies:
why her brother is in bjp..why yogendra yadav says “muslim ilako main aag lag jayegi”
who said “batla house encounter was fake” – arvind kejriwal
ec(election commission during delhi election give warning to certain aap for distributing pamphlates in muslim areas)
whose communities leaders ask for tactical votes in friday night sermons ever thought why these so called secularists go for religious leader to ask for votes
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April 25, 2014 at 5:28 AM
with facts
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April 22, 2014 at 7:22 AM
http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/home/lok-sabha-elections-2014/news/Fleet-of-3-aircraft-ensures-Modi-is-home-every-night-after-days-campaigning/articleshow/34069525.cms
Lavish style of spending crores while fighting against corruption.
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April 22, 2014 at 12:24 PM
The problem with liberals is that they feel their cause ( in this case defeating Modi ) is so great that every inconvinient truth can be twisted, every lie by Congress/AAP can be condoned. They are a victim of their stance. Once adopted every reality has to be twisted to justify and protect that stance.
Have seen the same happening in US. It is a position based on ideology but the truth is often the victim.
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April 23, 2014 at 9:20 AM
Priyanka Vadra defending Vadra is pathetic. Why she thinks Vadra’s land deals are not important? She looked like a hurt child than a mature politician.
Shazia Ilmi has shamed AAP with others like Kumar Vishwas. She embarrassed muslims who vehemently opposed her views.
BJP complaining about St.Xavier’s Principal. If he praised the gujarat model, would they have criticised him and complained against him?
NOTA seems to be the best option.
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April 23, 2014 at 10:39 AM
http://www.firstpost.com/india/why-didnt-xaviers-principal-simply-say-do-not-vote-for-modi-1492915.html
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April 23, 2014 at 3:21 PM
wah…….
Kiran Bedi @thekiranbedi · 1h
Dr Frazer,Principal St Xavier is member of a Steering Committee of Planning Commission+Member of Committee for Defence of Teesta Setalvad
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April 23, 2014 at 10:23 AM
Accept it or don’t, but this is what Shazia has to say about the rogue clip.
http://www.aamaadmiparty.org/shazia-ilmis-statement-on-the-video-clip
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April 23, 2014 at 10:26 AM
This is brilliant communalism though! Asking muslims to get communal and vote for a hindu!! LOL!
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April 23, 2014 at 10:44 AM
I am now 100 % sure that PAAP consists of the following- intellectual Muslims,( coz they can’t vote for SP), all out of work and out of relevance Commies ( since the Left Front is immaterial now) , Ex Congressis, and some idiots like – Duniya peetal kee, main baby doll soney kee !!!!
desh todney mein lagey hue hain !!
pathetic !!
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April 23, 2014 at 12:48 PM
I think the writing is on the wall.
All baby dolls can do is whine about Modi, misrepresent and twist facts, dig up uncomplimentary stories in media about him written by baby dolls and then threated to leave the country if Modi is elected!
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April 23, 2014 at 2:22 PM
well said Rajen. The Ghosnapatra last night was superb and insightful.
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April 24, 2014 at 1:48 PM
Wendy doniger’s important response:
http://www.nybooks.com/articles/archives/2014/may/08/india-censorship-batra-brigade/?insrc=hpss
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April 24, 2014 at 6:19 PM
There is no shortage of people like this bitch and these kind of contrarian ideologies are lapped up by so called intellectuals. These kind of ‘literary’ works reek of sensationalism and oppurtunism and give freedom of speech a bad rep. One can write alternative histories to all religions
Including Islam and Christianity to sell a few copies. The same intellectuals who criticise Jerry Falwell for his diatribe against Islamic leaders lap up the kind of shit served up by this person. Talk about double standars!
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April 24, 2014 at 7:05 PM
Have you not seen the enormous, angry backlash to David Cameron calling the UK a Christian country? Have you never read books that apply the same method of Freudian psychology-analysis that Doniger uses to Christian theology? Have you never seen satire of the more conservative, deeply Christian views that is so widespread in Western media (e.g. the musical Book of Mormon or the film Chocolat)?
The global left in no way selectively questions/ criticises/ analyses Hinduism alone, nor is it only in India that secularism is considered an important ideal; I don’t understand why so many Indian right-wingers like to pretend that Hinduism is the only religion that faces these challenges (some even go so far as to accuse the Jewish Doniger of being a Christian missionary!).
And ‘sensationalism and opportunism’? This women lived in academic obscurity until the protests against her book brought her enormous fame! I personally consider psycho-analysis to be perhaps the most puerile field of academia, but I certainly don’t think that this book deserves to be pulped for this reason. In the same vein, you could call for Freud’s books themselves to be pulped because he impinges upon the idea of pure motherhood that so many people hold so dear!
If you consider something to be Holy (be it Scientology, Christianity, Buddhism, Hinduism or Rajnikanth), that is your choice. It is not the duty of others to treat it with the same reverence just because you do. That modern-day Islamic culture generally prohibits people from questioning the religion in a healthy and democratic manner is something to be denounced, not something for other religions to seek to emulate!
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April 24, 2014 at 7:11 PM
Some historical facts for all those who seem to think there is a double standard at work and psychoanalysis in applied to Hinduism alone while other religions are glorified! 😉 http://www.historyguide.org/europe/lecture3.html
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April 24, 2014 at 8:10 PM
For the record, I am against desecration of any Holy book, be it Quran,Bible or Bhagwad Gita. Nothing good or constructive comes out of it.criticizing a religion without being part of it is just not done and any Indian who objects to misrepresentation of their ideology is not a right winger. These labels are so carelessly thrown about. Being firm and confident is mot right wing and meither is being wishy washy liberalism. Not everything said by Freud has to be held in high regard. I happen to disagree with a lot he has said.Dongier’s criticism is directed at main stream Hinduism and not some far out ideology.
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April 24, 2014 at 8:35 PM
You certainly don’t need to hold Freud in high regard (I don’t hold him in any regard whatsoever!) but that is the whole point of freedom of speech: you can disagree with someone and yet not condone their books being pulped.
And I did not say that any Indian who objects to Doniger so a right-winger, I was referring to the specific people who accused her of ‘Christian missionary zeal’ despite her being a Jew and they were right-wingers. As for carelessly throwing labels about, I’m pretty sure that bitch, baby doll, libtard etc are all far more derogatory than right-winger! 😛
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April 24, 2014 at 9:52 PM
But it’s not a contrarian ideology to show that the historical record reveals things that run contrary to popular belief. This happens with every religion and every group is as offended! The scholarship doesn’t speak to ‘belief’ though, it speaks to what is verifiable or what is likely to have happened or not happened. To insist that the only legitimate conversation on religion can only be had by those who believe creates a problem. For one the believers themselves very often believe very different things about the same religion. But leaving this aside it would be a bit like saying that one shouldn’t believe in the Big Bang because some or many Muslims, some or many Christians are offended by it. The same holds for non-religious beliefs as well. There are lots of beliefs surrounding nations and races and ethnicities and what not. if we refuse to accept principles of verifiability then we are more or less saying ‘anything goes’ in which case the Klan member could easily say that America was always meant to be a nation for Christian Whites and that this notion has been perverted over time and that anyone saying otherwise is simply being contrarian. Does a Muslim doctor operate on a patient following his medical training or does he simply follow a belief on what might be wrong with the patient? Why is that body of knowledge or that science acceptable but not the kind that subjects other walks of human life to similar inquiry? The irony here is that people like Doniger are arguing against precisely the colonial perspectives that have defined something like ‘Hinduism’ (which of course is not a ‘religion’, this too is a colonial construct, inventing this ‘ism’.. so anything that wasn’t monotheistic could be rendered uniform or as part of the same belief system.. insisting that everything is religion is to reduce the richness of Hindu belief in all its diversity because one then recasts it as a primitive stage of religion before monotheism.. for me whether one believes in Zeus or Allah it is exactly the same thing.. and I don’t intend anything condescending by this.. both should be taken equally seriously as expressions of belief..). It is of course true that much that the historical record reveals isn’t exactly comforting for the believer. But this is always the case. If you believe the sun is a god you’re not quite happy to discover it is just some kind of star with no life of any kind. If you believe God creates humans in Eden out of dust you’re not quite pleased to discover ancestral apes let alone a human embryo that in different stages reveals links to fish and reptiles! Now it is of course true that science and history have been employed for ideological reasons. To service colonialism or the worst kinds of social darwinism and so on. But this is an argument to discriminate, not to dismiss everyone , certainly not someone who’s one of the world’s foremost Sanskrit scholars and who has spent a lifetime with ancient Indian texts (she cannot be compared with Falwell because no serious scholar of Christianity considers Falwell anything but ridiculous if not despicable). A culture that produced the kamasutra couldn’t just have been one (if at all) that fulfills the imaginary created by Sooraj Barjatya! But again these are questions of verifiability. I don’t have a problem with anyone who believes that Moses split the Red Sea. In fact if one is a good reader of the Bible one must believe this at some level. However if one is then asked if the Red Sea was actually split by Moses as a verifiable scientific fact the answer has to be in the negative. Both things can be true even if these might seem contradictory. for me at least when I’m reading the Bible I am just in a different frame of reference than when I am examining the same as a question of history. So this is just a general point. But even if one sticks to believe there is the thorny problem of things that people believe within a faith that are contradictory. There is the equally problematic one of what different faiths believe. So for instance you have different creation stories around the world. All of them cannot be true because they are very different in many cases. Each believer believes that his or her version is the correct one. One cannot relativize things here and say these are different ways of accessing the divine because within each construct such relativism is not accepted. So even within belief there are lots of problems. But once again for me the cosmic battles of the Mahabharata or the extraordinary hymns of the Rg Veda are a way of experience. I don’t particularly care whether they stand the test of history or not. But if I am within the realm of history I am hardly willing to swear that Krishna offered that advice to Arjuna. To deliver what is valuable about all such human inquiry into the hands of fanatics or religious ideologues is I think a grave mistake. Because this is what one does when one follows this kind of argument. I always quote Dev in these contexts. It is precisely a certain mainstream Hinduism that needs to be defended. Why accept this blackmail by the Hindutva type that its either their re-definition of faith or its nothing. This is exactly the move fanatical Islamists or Christian fundamentalists perform. Or for that matter the equivalent in any other faith. Religious or political. These examples could be multiplied. I don’t of course believe you are arguing for all of this because I know you enough. But I am nonetheless laying this out because the drift of your argument is I think a dangerous one.
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April 24, 2014 at 10:15 PM
Superb, lucid comment.
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April 25, 2014 at 5:03 AM
http://www.niticentral.com/2014/02/12/wendy-doniger-hindus-and-fraudulent-left-liberals-189575.html
Here are the facts. Wendy Doniger’s book was published in India by Penguin five years ago. It met with a hostile reception and its contents were contested by several writers well-versed with Hindu texts and Sanskrit. Even the most casual reading of the book would show that the ‘alternative history’ that Wendy Doniger peddles is so much bunk and no more. For all her scholarship, her interpretation of text and tradition, her understanding of the finer nuances of Sanskrit, come across as amazing shallow in this book.
Critics of ‘The Hindus: An Alternative History’ have argued, and not without reason, that the book was crafted to intentionally pour scorn on Hinduism; to titillate those who feel it is obligatory, either for reasons of ideology or faith if not both, to denigrate Hinduism; to use the papier mâché mask of scholarship to mock at Hindus for worshipping gods and goddesses who are portrayed as high on Viagra.
It could be entirely coincidental, but what Wendy Doniger has to say about Hindus and Hinduism bears remarkable similarity with the salacious, slanderous contents of lesser pamphlets used by pastors sponsored by foreign evangelists who run a multi-billion-dollar trans-national business of harvesting souls. For evidence, compare Wendy Doniger’s slickly produced ‘The Hindus’ with Pastor MG Matthew’s shabbily printed ‘Haqeeqat’. I would desist from quoting either of the authors because that would amount to giving undue publicity to scurrilous comments aimed at demeaning Hindus and defaming their faith. The similarity does not necessarily suggest a larger conspiracy, not the least because Wendy Doniger, I am told, is not a Bible-thumping Christian but a secular Jew
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April 25, 2014 at 5:43 AM
This is a rag of an opinion piece. One you’ve quoted before. Of course online one can find opinion pieces supporting any view one likes. In the US every last one of those BJP supporters (the biggest NRI financiers of the party) would choose Harvard over Benaras University if it came to such a choice. In fact none of them would even consider this a reasonable choice. Forget the latter, I doubt they would prefer any Indian university over Harvard. Yes that same Harvard which produces incredibly shoddy scholars each generation, one of which is Wendy Doniger with her summa cum laude in Sanskrit. But maybe Kanchan Gupta knows more.
As for the Rushdie affair that was a disgustingly cynical decision on Rajiv Gandhi’s part. of course from ordinary Muslims to Mullahs you heard the same arguments. People are out to insult the faith, Rushdie doesn’t know what he’s talking about (actually one of his tripos subjects at Cambridge was Islamic history and so he did know what he was talking about), so on and so forth. In each case this is the reaction of those who simply find the truth inconvenient.
And here the word ‘alternative’ should be defined because it seems to create a lot of confusion. Doniger’s ‘alternative’ history or similar efforts along the same lines are not fictions. These works are about highlighting aspects of a tradition that might have been previously repressed or forgotten. It happens all the time in historical writing of every kind. Someone who writes an alternative history of the United States isn’t making things up! How would this work? If the common view is about the US being this great experiment in democracy and about the spread of freedom and Enlightenment values and about being the ultimate immigrant melting-pot and so on the alternative history might remind us of how the United States has also been about a Native-American genocide or a history of slavery or an awful history of racial segregation even after slavery was officially ended or about an imperial land-grab or about each new immigrant group facing violence and hostility from an older one (Gangs of New York anyone?) and so forth. The first version is simply a romantic one. The second one complicates things. it does not resemble the United States of an politician’s speech, left or right. It is a history that is constantly denied or evaded. But this alternative history is absolutely real. It is not something a scholar dreams up. Of course it could be that there is a vast conspiracy afoot within the American academia to ridicule the US. Who knows?
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April 25, 2014 at 5:07 AM
http://www.niticentral.com/2014/02/22/wendy-doniger-and-censorship-who-is-really-to-blame-192552.html
I have read the book and I found it to be obnoxious and academically sub-standard. I think those who criticise Penguin (to be referred as TWCP from this point onwards), should also talk about the merit of what Doniger has written. But then it would mean having to read the book I guess.
Wendy Doniger is not in a low-level position in the academic ladder. In fact, in many ways, she is considered to be a sort of queen bee as far as ‘Hindu studies’ are concerned. So one would expect she would use her freedom with responsibility. One would also expect that a person in her position would have a certain amount of empathy of the subject that she is dealing with. Otherwise, by definition, she would be writing in a manner that would not bring out the true essence of Hinduism.
TWCP make the following essential points:
» The book is good representation of what Hinduism is. After all, the author is a ‘reputed scholar’.
» Even if it is not, the author has every right to write what he/she did, and the issue is one of free speech.
» What an author writes, could well be one of the many representation of what Hinduism is.
» If one disagrees with the book, the right approach is to write a book in refutation.
» The petitioner has no real academic qualifications to dispute what is written.
» The petition is another example of growing intolerance within Hinduism.
» Such protests will diminish Hinduism
Wendy Doniger has been criticised by many people for her writings. Even on the book on question, there have been detailed analyses of not just the factual errors, but also interpretations which the Hindus would not be able to relate to. She has also been asked to come to programmes organised by those critical to her writings, so that she is given an opportunity to give her perspective. She has always declined such opportunities.
It is not only the present Wendy Doniger book that has been critiqued by Hindus in a professional way. However, in each case, these critiques are not in suggested readings list. In fact, there is a claim that if they are mentioned by a student in their papers, their grades suffer. So much for academic freedom.
The problem for TWCP is that the internet and social media has widened the avenues for people to get to know different perspectives on all the issues that concern them. Also, TWCP are now finding that the people at large are better relating to the non-mainstream academics who are criticising the so far standard version of teaching what Hinduism is all about.
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April 25, 2014 at 5:11 AM
a court case with academic scholars on view and penguin chickened out unable to defend
(What adds to their discomfort is the inconvenient fact that neither the state nor the court has banned the book; it was Penguin Books that discovered that Brand Chicago has no immunity in the face of academic challenge and should not be taken at face value in future. The publisher apologetically averred that “it respects all religions worldwide,” which is a tacit admission that the book was derogatory to Hindus and their divinities.)
Of course, they fell silent when Abhishek Manu Singhvi sent a legal notice to Spanish author Javier Moro on grounds that his book, El Sari Rojo (The Red Sari), on Sonia Gandhi amounted to “exploiting somebody’s privacy for personal commercial gains”. Interestingly, neither the Congress president nor vice-president, both of whom rushed to speak out against the Supreme Court verdict upholding the legality of Section 377 on homosexuality, have commented on the withdrawal of Wendy Doniger’s insulting portrayal of Hindu civilisation and its respected divinities.
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April 25, 2014 at 5:53 AM
if this is opinion piece(facts which can be verified easily by anyone) and rebuked if one has abiility if so is case btw what would call certain verbose based on myth…again an opinion only
on rushdie rant surprisingly the same penguin was publisher(fyi) and didn’t chickened out because there where fatwas not counterarguments invitation and case on law….again no way comparable just like u.s and indian set up are not
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April 25, 2014 at 7:14 AM
this is why it is important to be precise. The Satanic Verses was banned by Rajiv Gandhi using a Custom Act provision which allows the govt to prohibit import of a work if it judges it to be a threat to ‘security’. of course this is a sham argument but given the demonstration and the nonsense the mullahs were stirring up it was easy for the govt to exploit this provision. check out a recent piece on what this ban means:
http://www.thehindu.com/news/national/only-import-of-book-prohibited-say-legal-experts/article2826248.ece
the Doniger book on the other hand relies on a completely different provision. Which itself is terrible law but the point here is more or less that if anyone’s feelings are hurt a case can be made (what if the Ramayana or the Koran hurts my feelings?!). So it’s not the same law that was relied on in each case. The problem with the Satanic Verses ban was that the book was thrown into a kind of limbo where technically only the ‘import’ was banned. The correct response in any case is that both were wrong, not that since this was done to the Satanic Verses it’s ok to do it to Doniger. And this is the classic example of bad faith on the Right. In each and every case the alibi provided is on the left. In other words ‘hey they did it too’. But if one found the original thing bad one shouldn’t defend it when it happens in one’s court using the earlier bad example.
In any case the Right has been utterly foolish here. No one had heard of the Doniger book except among scholars or a serious reading public. By making such a big deal out of it the book started getting downloaded all over India, it shot up the Amazon ranks and so forth. In effect it became precisely something that interested a popular audience! This is called shooting yourself in the foot! Much as Khomeini made the Satanic Verses more famous that it ever would have been otherwise!
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April 25, 2014 at 5:57 AM
gangs of new york doesn’t deal with slavery as such(villain and hero both where white) infact it was class war based on revenge ironically among butchers and elite no wonder kashyap indianised it on digferent level with gang of waseeypur
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April 25, 2014 at 7:04 AM
It deals with violence directed at new immigrants. That’s what I was referring to there.
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April 25, 2014 at 7:21 AM
Recall how the Government headed by Rajiv Gandhi had imposed a ban on Salman Rushdie’s novel, The Satanic Verses, even before bonfires were made of copies of the book in Bradford by Muslim immigrants who would be hard put to read it cover to cover. While Iran came to the world’s notice with Ayatollah Khomeini issuing a fatwa sanctioning Rushdie’s murder, India came to enjoy the dubious distinction of becoming the first country to ban The Satanic Verses. Now contrast these responses with the reaction of the British Government. Mrs Margaret Thatcher, who was then Prime Minister, not only defended Rushdie and took on Iran’s mullah brigade but also ordered full protection for the author, including arranging for safe houses for him. And all this despite the fact that Rushdie was among the strongest and most outspoken critics of Mrs Thatcher, rarely if ever missing an opportunity to offend her and her Conservative Government’s policies. Compare that to a cussed Government of India refusing to issue a visa to Rushdie; he had to wait till 1998 when Mr Jaswant Singh, as Minister for External Affairs, struck down the dumb ‘policy’ that prevented a person to visit the country of his origin simply because he had offended those who hadn’t even read The Satanic Verses, including the Left-liberal commentariat. – See more at: http://www.deeshaa.org/2011/06/19/kanchan-gupta-the-sterile-debate-over-free-speech/#sthash.9YVUKTiD.dpuf
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April 25, 2014 at 7:29 AM
infact left has been more foolish here
everyone know most have not heard of it and has been downloaded more rather than sold…
it was the public posture of alternate history which got exposed
anger and rage are more in left and they are are talking about it
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April 24, 2014 at 10:48 PM
Periyar used to beat hindu idols with chappals while not touching other religions. The miniscule brahmin community helplessly raged against this blasphemy. Periyar was fighting for social justice and he used this crude way while ambedkar tried to bring about changes by embracing Buddhism.
In andhra pradesh, there was one famous author called Ranganayakamma who wrote Ramayana Vishavriksham and it was not banned.
Most of the anger was directed at brahmins and the OBC castes in the south did not mind it most of the time.
The brahmin influence has waned considerably and even Modi prides himself being an OBC and empathises with them.
Most of the brahmins have become atheists and cosmopolitan while ironically it is a big section of the OBCs who have become strident defenders of hinduism.
In this respect, the Shivsena and MNS do not discriminate maharashtrians on their caste basis. That is the reason for their never decreasing vote share in maharashtra. Same case in gujarat too.
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April 25, 2014 at 6:28 AM
“In the US every last one of those BJP supporters (the biggest NRI financiers of the party) would choose Harvard over Benaras University if it came to such a choice. In fact none of them would even consider this a reasonable choice. Forget the latter, I doubt they would prefer any Indian university over Harvard. Yes that same Harvard which produces incredibly shoddy scholars each generation, one of which is Wendy Doniger with her summa cum laude in Sanskrit. But maybe Kanchan Gupta knows more. ”
SO well said Satyam! I find it utterly hypocritical that the same class of Indians who rever education and worship at the altar of the Ivy League would pour so much scorn upon Western-educated intellectuals. Honestly, I would be surprised if even one of these NRIs/ educated upper-middle class Indians would not be elated if their child was to secure admission to Havard/ Yale/ Princeton/ Oxford/ Cambridge!
And how many of these self-appointed guardians of culture would actually encourage their children to study a subject like Sanskrit or Theology at University, or to pursue a career in art history/ architecural conservation at sacred Hindu sites instead of pursuing the corporate holy grail of Goldman Sachs/ McKinsey/ Microsoft etc? Not many, I’d wager. (I’m talking here not about the Kanchan Guptas and the Dinesh Batras, but about the average NRI/ Upper-middle class supporter of their ideology).
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April 25, 2014 at 6:43 AM
again not relevent but should be answered in same way
question to be asked why these great saints unable to defend themselves and there so called gospel
why people has to scorn over indians in frustration they are holier though..aren’t these saints also doing business with cheap labor and industrial set up and earning profit
what is wrong in defending one own if one has ability
Sanskrit or Theology is not fianancial but cultural and spiritual matter(how many in these companies get job by studyin bible) because its not related to job but alot of americans in the same way are studying mandarin and indian languages
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April 25, 2014 at 6:54 AM
*sigh* If you want to engage in debate, atleast take the effort to type out proper sentences! I cannot comprehend half of what you write…
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April 25, 2014 at 6:59 AM
if one concentrate on content rather than rubbish and personal stuff he will surely come up with something substantial and personal stuff is always the last resort of someone who has nothing to say or even comprehend
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April 25, 2014 at 6:57 AM
wow, what argument…..all the commies like Jyoti Basu enjoyed their Scotch in air conditioned homes every day, and talked about communism, loads of News traders write about Gujrat without ever visiting Gujrat is Ok for everyone, but how dare a NRI Hindu speak for Hindus ?
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April 25, 2014 at 7:01 AM
Who the hell made this argument?! It’s not my fault if you construct prepostorous strawmen positions and attribute them to me! I ado not sympathize with communists, regardless of their choice of beverage.
And it’s not my fault if you choose to spectacularly misinterpret what I said. I never said than an NRI should not speak for Hindus. Perhaps if you actually read my comment, you’ll see that.
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April 25, 2014 at 7:05 AM
I read, understood it very well, it is my interpretation, you can dispute it just as Batra was disputing Wendy’s by legal means, lekin commies ko mirchi lag gayee kyon ???
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April 25, 2014 at 7:13 AM
What an absurd comparison. I might disagree with you, but I wouldn’t ask Satyam or the other moderators to remove your comment just because of that!
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April 25, 2014 at 7:17 AM
that xavier principle is the public defender of teesta stelvad…was involved with congress administratively
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April 25, 2014 at 7:18 AM
Satyam has on his own on several occasions. deleted comments…
absurd ??
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April 25, 2014 at 8:06 AM
Rocky, I refuse to take offense because we are both Dus Numbri fans.
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April 25, 2014 at 7:28 AM
Do not keep changing the terms of debate: the point is that your analogy between my objection to your comment and Batra’s actions is flawed. And deleting something on your blog is very different from pulping a book that was present in the public
domain, as I am sure you are intelligent enough to recognize.
And seriously Rocky, if you support the pulping of this book, where would you draw the line? Revoking Vishwaroopam because it hurt Muslim sentiments? Pulping the Da Vinci Code because it hurt Christian sentiments? Banning those who accused Doniger of being a Christian missionary because it hurt her Jewish sentiments? Revoking Chennai Express because it offends South Indian sentiments?
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April 25, 2014 at 7:33 AM
again not relevent
da vinci code, vishwaroopam was banned by government now law and here publisher chickened out and apologized with debate and law not violence
case of free speech other way around
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April 25, 2014 at 8:31 AM
yeah using this logic every Mullah who can read the Koran in Arabic should be considered on par with actual scholars of the language. Of course the Mullahs make the very same claims. ‘What does ‘x’ [scholar at Harvard or Oxford or Berlin or wherever] know about Arabic?’ or ‘what does ‘y’ know about the Koran? he is not even a believer’.
The problem is people are usually more interested in feeding their own biases. Notice how the ‘both are wrong’ option is never accepted. So people always have this ‘if x did it why can’t y?’ logic because they want to use the screen of the other to justify their own excesses. But this insistence on a prior act of excess or violence is always a suspect one. First of all it leads almost to an infinite regress. Every group can [and does] always rely on a previous cycle of violence or excess (months old or centuries old) to authorize its present excess/violence. One never gets out of a cycle this way and one doesn’t even wish to get out of it. Here a psychoanalytic insight is important — we always wish to do things to the other in some deep-rooted sense, we hate the ‘neighbor’ as it were and the empirical evidence (they first killed us) is the excuse to engage in what we always wished to do anyway. So take the Hey Raam example. The tailor there probably had a thing for Rani Mukherjee anyway but the riot provided him the excuse to rape her. But he could always justify the rape by saying that some Hindi somewhere raped some other Muslim. I’ve been having these debates for years and the one thing I’ve consistently noticed is that that ‘both are wrong’ option is never chosen. At most people will say ‘you’re [Satyam] different, we’re not talking about you’ and then move back to the same old position. It is about the left bogeyman in the media, the ‘commies’ (the only country in the world where this world still has some relevance!) and so forth. There is always an ‘alibi’. One is always only responding to something else which of course absolves one entirely of the responsibility to condemn what is indefensible. Because one always pretends to be talking about something else. Obama had a shrewd rhetorical move in many of the debates the first time he ran where he would tell his opponent when challenged on something that ‘we can have that debate but right now I’m talking about…’. So there was always a deferral. ‘We can have that debate’. Well actually why aren’t you having that debate since come to think of it this is a formal debate?! We are at that debate! Similarly there is rhetorical strategy of saying more or less ‘before we talk about Modi or anything else let’s talk about the biased Outlook guys and what Rajiv Gandhi did’ etc etc. One never gets to that part where Modi has to be judged because one is forever judging others who are somehow being unfair to modi or the right. Similarly with this Doniger case suddenly it’s all about other books that were or were not banned. It’s never about what actually happened. Again how hard is it to say that any banning is wrong and if this wa done earlier that doesn’t make the Doniger banning right? But once again it’s always about biased commentators and what not. Why? Because one really likes the Doniger banning. one doesn’t want that sort of freedom of expression one pretends to be far. Which is why if the US is invoked too much there’s immediately the ‘things are different in India’ excuse. Well why were you pretending to have this great democracy otherwise?! Indeed there are important distinctions but surely the democratic ideals are similar? It’s the game Israel plays. On the one hand they say they’re the only Mideast democracy and so on. Alright fair enough. But then you criticize them for their treatment of prisoners or the Occupation and their prompt response is ‘look at what happens in Saudi Arabia’!
If one wants a Hindu India which is more or less the mirror image of Islamic Pakistan where one has a very restrictive notion of democracy where people formally vote but their freedoms are increasingly curtailed otherwise, most often in the name of religion, and where minorities have minimal rights if any, one should come out and say it. I noticed the other day a piece where many in Pakistan seem to have a rather sanguine view about Modi’s election. Somehow they were never as sanguine about any Congress govt. Isn’t there something odd here? But not really. Nothing would make many in pakistan happier than an absolute confirmation of the two-nation theory. And nothing would make the Hindutva brigade happier also who’ve always felt that Muslims got what they wished with Pakistan and meanwhile they got the Nehruvian raw deal of the secular state! Both sides really agree here. Even some influentials mullahs in Pakistan have said that Modi should be fine. Surely something more than a little fishy here!
And so from the Doniger case to Modi and so on it’s all part of the same spectrum of opinion and argument.
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April 25, 2014 at 6:51 AM
on to kanchan gupta don’t worry he know something not for nothing mms government and mms government tried to ban his twit handle with failed repercussion and backlash
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April 25, 2014 at 6:56 AM
HAHAHAHA! So Kanchan Gupta’s ‘knowledge’ of Sanskrit is proven because you claim the MMS tried to ban his twitter handle (what a bizarre and tenous link!), but Doniger’s Summa Cum Laude in Sanskrit from Harvard is not sufficient proof of her knowledge? HILARIOUS!
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April 25, 2014 at 7:06 AM
shows your lack of knowledge and general comprehension skill..
it was due to his political writing (kanchan’s) but doniger and penguin where scared to come upfront with genuine sanskrit scholars in public and lost case with them which is a fact
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April 25, 2014 at 7:00 AM
Knowledge toh Xavier’s key Principal k bhee bahut hai, buy how did that A ….hole applied it matters…
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April 25, 2014 at 7:27 AM
Absurd is when Modi says “Ganga maa ney Bulaya hai” and western media prints it as “I am the chosen one by God”….
but Shahsi Tharoor and Wendy influenced people would not see the difference issliye jaane do…
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April 25, 2014 at 8:09 AM
The most Intolerant and extreme fundamentalists are so called Liberals…. Only their narrative is true. Only they know the language. Only they control levers of power. Only they have freedom of Speech and only their IOI is true…
Last few weeks have been so great to see such tragic pathetic meltdown of so called liberals…
Wait and watch how ‘liberals’ will come up with new fear mongering, conjectures from their @@@.
SM is filled with their meltdown and seeing here also…
But I am loving it 😀
ps : Aaj kal so called liberals ko thodi si ungli karo toh woh roonaiy lagte hain… They will write 4000 words but w/o any meaning.. Thats’s always been trademark of left liberals/commies… Write gibberish and echo chamber will endorse it..
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April 25, 2014 at 8:10 AM
Penguin withdrawal is being misunderstood. It was a case of risk management. They understood that the particular law being used did not apply, but their action, withdrawal, REFLECTS the lack of faith in Indian Judicial System. Plus they felt that win or lose, their employees in India with be exposed to the potential street justice. Hence like any responsible corporation, they withdrew.
Those that claim that Wendy’s book has been “trashed by scholars”, should know that even the “trashing of these so called scholars” has been “trashed by other academic scholars”.
I personally did not find anything in the book which was new to me. As an NRI I had all of this from multiple Indian Scholars too.
I also felt that it appears that most resistance is based not on the merit of Wendy’s scholarship or writing BUT on the fact that she is not an Indian / Hindu. Take the issue about Swami Vivekananda, his position on “meat” is well documented YET Batra (for example) finds it objectionable. Why ? Because these facts are hurtful. Now if these statements were sourced from a hate monger or from a dubious source, I can still understand. I “can” understand disallowing unproven, dubious facts from hate mongers in the interest people’s sensitivity . But protesting well known facts is definitely not Kosher.
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April 25, 2014 at 8:37 AM
Penguin did fight the case for quite some time but legally they had no choice beyond a point. Because the way the statute is written it’s very hard to win such a case. And this is precisely the problem. A law that invites such responses, that is written to police freedom of expression using these sham excuses of feelings being hurt and what not. There would be no art or scholarship in human history if we used this standard in every case!
Interestingly Doniger is coming out with some Hindu texts in a 4000 page anthology (out later this year) which also includes texts from other important religions and where she says with some humor that people will be very upset with some of these writings even though these are original sources. Again this is common to every faith. You show people certain sources from Islam or Christianity or whatever and they get upset. Because orthodox belief is always about blotting out certain aspects of the tradition. This is what people then follow. For them this is the only faith. Quite naturally they’re in for a rude shock when one day they discover other sources. And again this happens not just at the level of religion but also at the level of politics and so forth.
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April 25, 2014 at 9:12 AM
In approx 325 AD, Christianities (plural) united into a “sort of” single Christian (singular) doctrine at the Council of Nicea. Those that disagreed with this post Council of Nicea view of Christianity were condemned as heretics and shunned.
I think today, India/Hinduism is witnessing a similar attempt. Except a singular united umbrella structure for Hinduism would be like trying to fit a square peg in a round hole. I personally feel great harm will be done in pruning down this vast tree into a bush that fits contemporary political designs.
I see similar attempts overseas by the Yoga community. The Hinduism via yoga studio is in the process of being reformed as a palatable dish to the western tastes. Sure for the moment sales will increase but in the long term it will change the very way of life the the Yoga Studios are trying to propagate.
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April 25, 2014 at 8:47 AM
The petitioners, however, in their plea had claimed that the book was based on “unreliable and unauthentic and one sided sources” and is full of biases, generalizations and pre-conceived notions. “That it has not only used and misused but abused Indian history and religion in an undignified manner. It is a mis-interpretation of Hindu dharma and its glorious past. That the defendant along with the author have selected scattered events of their choice and given them their own interpretation,” the petition had stated.
Quoting the excerpts from the book, the petition stated that the author incorrectly stated that “Hindu organizations began holding rallies at the site of Babur’s Mosque, campaigning for the rebuilding of the temple despite the absence of any evidence to confirm either the existence of the temple or even the identification of the modern town of Ayodhya”.
They also claimed that Doniger, in her book, had maliciously and mischievously written that “the monkey was presumed to be Hanuman, who has become the mascot of the RSS, the militant wing of the BJP”.
The petitioners also alleged that Doniger’s claim on Mahatama Gandhi and Swami Vivekananda eating “beef” and Jhansi Ki Rani having loyalty for Britishers was equivalent to “defaming the Indian freedom fighters in general”.
“That the author and publisher have wantonly indulged in unlawful act by showing photographs of Hindu god namely Lord Krishna sitting on the lap of a naked woman and surrounded by other naked women and thereby have tried to provoke people intending and knowing that it is likely to cause the offence of rioting,” the petition added.
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April 25, 2014 at 8:54 AM
‘Petitioners’ say lot of things. So what?
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April 25, 2014 at 8:56 AM
and he won
factual errors need to be classified as in factual category and not as historical book
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April 25, 2014 at 9:15 AM
They did not win. In the interest of the safety of their employees, Penguin withdrew.
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April 25, 2014 at 9:23 AM
sale doesn’t indicated it or revenues milked with no scope
why an apology then
http://www.penguinbooksindia.com/en/content/penguin-india%E2%80%99s-statement-%E2%80%98-hindus%E2%80%99-wendy-doniger
Penguin Books India believes, and has always believed, in every individual’s right to freedom of thought and expression, a right explicitly codified in the Indian Constitution. This commitment informs Penguin’s approach to publishing in every territory of the world, and we have never been shy about testing that commitment in court when appropriate. At the same time, a publishing company has the same obligation as any other organisation to respect the laws of the land in which it operates, however intolerant and restrictive those laws may be. We also have a moral responsibility to protect our employees against threats and harassment where we can. The settlement reached this week brings to a close a four year legal process in which Penguin has defended the publication of the Indian edition of The Hindus by Wendy Doniger. We have published, in succession, hardcover, paperback and e-book editions of the title. International editions of the book remain available physically and digitally to Indian readers who still wish to purchase it. We stand by our original decision to publish The Hindus, just as we stand by the decision to publish other books that we know may cause offence to some segments of our readership. We believe, however, that the Indian Penal Code, and in particular section 295A of that code, will make it increasingly difficult for any Indian publisher to uphold international standards of free expression without deliberately placing itself outside the law. This is, we believe, an issue of great significance not just for the protection of creative freedoms in India but also for the defence of fundamental human rights.
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April 25, 2014 at 6:13 PM
A case is won or lost based on court (Judge/Jury) ruling. A settlement therefore cannot be cited as a precedent.
So, “why an apology ?” The answer is that it is good form.
Finally you ask were employees threatened ? I request that you read the statement from Penguin again.
NOW, for a change, let me ask a question.
“If Batra & Co think they have evidence on their side and have better than a snow ball chance in hell to win an “academic argument” why not try this in a US / UK court ?”
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April 25, 2014 at 6:56 PM
I am googling for an apology in Penguin’s statement. I cannot find it, maybe it is my browser.
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April 25, 2014 at 11:43 PM
Why should Penguin fight the case? Wendy Doniger or any other litigant on her behalf should contest the case. Penguin has no locus standi as it is neither for nor against the book – it only published the book with the intent of making sales.
known commies and anti hindu people(jnu lobbby romila thapar) urged them ….what happened…
http://creative.sulekha.com/risa-lila-1-wendy-s-child-syndrome_103338_blog
Because the depictions of India in the West are inseparable from depictions of India’s religious life (something that Indian secularists have tried to wish away unsuccessfully), the work done by RISA scholars has implications that go well beyond the discipline’s boundaries. Religion is prominently featured in South Asian Studies, Asian Studies, International Studies, Women’s Studies, Philosophy, Sociology, Anthropology, History, Literature, and Politics, and indirectly also influences Journalism, Film, and so forth. Therefore, the utter ignorance of Indians regarding such a discipline is a major gap that deserves attention and remedy.
Meanwhile, under Western control, Hinduism Studies has produced ridiculous caricatures that could easily be turned into a Bollywood movie or a TV serial. This Lila[ iv ] of the inner workings of RISA is the subject of this essay. (Readers who are unfamiliar with RISA and AAR should read this essay as a general account of Western academic engagement and control over India-related studies. While the examples given are RISA-specific, the message applies more broadly.)
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April 25, 2014 at 11:46 PM
Witzel on Doniger’s Mistranslation of the Rig Veda:
With due respects to Doniger’s scholarship and insights, it must be pointed out, because it is not universally known even among Indologists, that the depth of the professor’s knowledge of Sanskrit has been called into question by Professor Michael Witzel of Harvard University. To quote Witzel, Doniger’s “rendering of even the first two paadas [of Rig Veda] is more of a paraphrase than a translation,” and her style “is rather a stream of unconnected George-Bush-like anacoluths.” He goes on to illustrate his point by referring to Doniger’s translation of one verse, “He will shed tears, sobbing, when he learns,” and commenting that “there is no sobbing here,” and that she simply made that up to give the desired effect.
But it is not just in translation that Doniger fails. Her interpretations are also flawed. Witzel charges that Doniger “denies the possibility of male/female friendship — perhaps a current local cultural bias — but certainly not a Rgvedic one.” He also reveals that in her translations, “Sakhya is completely misunderstood, as is usual in such cases with Indologists not very conversant with Vedic; it is understood on the basis of Epic/Classical sakhi “friend” and thus the whole point of the apparent saying is missed. A Vedic sakhi is not just any friend…”
Astonished, Witzel concludes: “In this hymn (of 18 stanzas) alone I have counted 43 instances which are wrong or where others would easily disagree.”
Witzel on Doniger’s Mistranslation of the Jaiminiya Brahmana:
Regarding Wendy’s translation of “Jaiminiya Brahmana,” Prof. Witzel remarks: “And of course, the translation, again is a ‘re’-translation” of others’ works” in which she has “merely added a fashionable(?) Freudian coating…”
Witzel continues: “The trouble again is that [Doniger] did not follow up the secondary literature well, not even with the help of the students she mentions…if the sec. lit. had been used — the translation would have turned out much better.”
Witzel exposes “her predilection for street language colloquialisms,” such as “balls of cowshit, balls of shit” and “balls of Indra”, which Witzel considers to be “Vedic slang” not found in the Sanskrit texts. Furthermore, he charges, there are “many gaps in the translations where words or whole sentences have been forgotten…”
Even more seriously of concern to Witzel are Wendy’s errors in what he calls the “serious grammatical business,” for which he scolds her for “misunderstanding the ‘first-year Sanskrit’.” “Difficult sentences,” writes Witzel, “are simply left out without telling us so.”
Witzel concludes: “Simple question: if ‘that’ much is wrong in just one story (and this is a small selection only!) — what about the rest of this book and her other translations?… It might have been better to have used the old translations and to have added her Freudian interpretation to them… In sum: The “translation” simply is UNREALIABLE.”
Witzel on Doniger’s Mistranslation of the Laws of Manu:
Reviewing this translation by Doniger, Witzel writes: “I give just one example which shows both wrong (rather, lack of) philological method and lack of simple common sense.” (See endnote for the rather technical example.[ lxiii ])
Furthermore, Witzel criticizes Doniger for using only a small selection of the available variations. She does not invest serious energy in selecting what variations to use where and why. Therefore, concludes Witzel, her scholarship is not of the standard required by Harvard: “In view of all of this, I wonder indeed whether D’s translation would have been accepted in the Harvard Oriental Series rather than in Penguin…”
Witzel’s Conclusions:
This brief but devastating review of the Queen’s scholarship was just the tip of the iceberg of what Witzel could have done, had he not been asked to stop. His overall remarks about the above three examples of her mistranslation:
“Note that all 3 translations are RE-translations. Mistakes of the type mentioned above could easily have been avoided if the work of our 19th century predecessors (and contemporaries!) had been consulted more carefully… Last point: Looking at the various new translations that have appeared in the past decade or so: Why always to RE-translate something done ‘several’ times over already — and why not to take up one of the zillion UN-translated Skt. texts?”
Witzel is also critical of the heroic proclamations by Wendy’s cronies about her books: “And a little less hype would also do: ‘a landmark translation, the first authoritative translation in this century’ (cover); ‘to offer to more specialized scholars new interpretations of many difficult verses.’ (p. lxi) — I doubt it.”
The claim of critical inquiry with an open mind would require that RISA should have taken up these issues seriously. At the very least, there should be panels of scholars, whose careers are outside her influence, to critique Wendy’s work, because of her enormous power in academe.
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April 26, 2014 at 5:53 AM
So the MO seems to be to discredit WD rather than debate the merits/demerits/substance of the book.
If there is a genuine case to be made then a bigger bang for the efforts is achievable by pursuing this in the courts in US. After all Penguin still sells the book worldwide. Even in India, I think access is available via download.
Penguin says it wants to stay within the limits of the law however intolerant and restrictive the law is. Penguin is sort of saying that India is kind of intolerant and limits freedom of expression.
Hence if Batra believes in himself he should try and remove the tarnish his actions has caused to the image on India. Years and decades of good work by NRIs to build India’s image in the west has been washed away by this event. This is not how we want the works to perceive us.
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April 25, 2014 at 8:54 AM
results:
the courts are fascists
protesters protested non violently in a civilized manner … if Wendy wants she can challenge in supreme court of India ,,,why not
Any one can write anything and get it published. They have a right. But then any aggrieved person can go to court against the author and publisher. That is their right too
Penguin opted for settlement after four years into litigation.Was the impending verdict leaked to them?
By making it a big issue, who have brought a third rate book into limelight and many pseudo-secularists suddenly have become great fans of this shallow book
Whether a God exists or not can be discussed, but a believer should not be altogether ridiculed
Ganesha’s trunk symbolizes a “limp phallus”; his broken tusk is a symbol for the castration-complex of the Hindu male; his large belly is a proof of the Hindu male’s enormous appetite for oral sex. Shiva, is interpreted as a womanizer, who encourages ritual rape, prostitution and murder, and his worship is linked to violence and destruction. ” The scholars are none other than Wendy Doniger and her bandwagon… are these arguments even remotely worth arguing?
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April 25, 2014 at 8:56 AM
“Any one can write anything and get it published. They have a right. But then any aggrieved person can go to court against the author and publisher. That is their right too”
Actually the second bit does not follow. Because a democracy should not have such laws. To have such a law perverts the very idea of freedom of speech. But again what if someone’s feelings are hurt by the Ramayana? What do you think the Courts would do? I rest my case!
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April 25, 2014 at 9:04 AM
Simple. dont read it. dont think about it.
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April 25, 2014 at 9:18 AM
Vote with your dollars. Don’t like it, stay away.
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April 25, 2014 at 12:54 PM
I think it is not simple. As few things in life are. People do tend to get offended when such things are published or showcased
and I can understand it. Every right has to be exercised with responsibility and Democracy and freedom of speech should not be used as a license to hurt others’ sensibilities.
I think we all have a social responsibility to respect others views which supercedes the freedom to do whatever.
A one on one debate is different but published owrks or art is different in that respect. I can trash liberalism for sake of liberalism and a liberal can trash a Modi support when we are debating in person or on a forum.
And, whether justified or not, it does grate more when an American Indologist starts puting his/her own spin on deeply held religious customs and traditions.I will be honest here and confess that it would bother me far less if an Indian were saying these things. Because an outsider inspite of having sent years studying something doesnt have the same grasp or appreciation of customs/traditions, their history,their evolution and their meaning and importance to us.
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April 25, 2014 at 2:28 PM
I’m not sure if being an ‘insider’ equals any better grasp of local traditions or customs. How many North Indians have read the Kamban Ramayana? How many have seen a Tamil movie? The reverse is also true (if it is less so it is mostly because of hegemonic reasons.. for instance one is more exposed to Hollywood whether one likes it or not). Most North Indians if not all couldn’t name three Gujarati items on a menu! So where is this Indian who’s somehow aware of all these Indian traditions? The Ganapati festival which seems synonymous with Bombay was an invention of the British, at least in its current ‘epic’ form. How many people who celebrate the festival know this? If a Western scholar then points this out he or she is supposed to be insulting the native! The whole problem is precisely that the insider does not know in most cases. Because over time and to paraphrase a formulation of Gayatri Spivak’s history is translated into the ‘natural’. In other words what people consider to be timeless and obvious is really the product of a history. Christians did not always believe the things that pretty much every Christian believes today! Various Church councils decided these things and it has been centuries since. If you transplanted an RSS ideologue to the Gupta past he or she would have been regarded as some kind of alien! to exaggerating. It is the same move everywhere. And it is especially pronounced on the Right. We know this from the western record. With the claim of re-orienting oneself towards a tradition that tradition in that very moment is invented or (re)invented. there was no ‘german nation’ before various ideologues decided there was one! So in trying to restore German tradition they were inventing it. For the longest time there were all these German speaking areas and no one ever though it was one nation! Much as India is an ancient civilization but that is not at all the same as being one country in the nation-state sense of the word. Over time realities change in every sense but the names remain the same. And with these certain illusions.
Of course the question then becomes: who is the ‘insider’? According to many adivasis the Hindu as the ‘diku’ (their term for outsider) is the original outsider! But of course they don’t have the power to insist on this! Any nation, religion, ethnic group, linguistic group etc etc that insists on some kind of primary or primal ‘unity’ is always indulging in ‘fiction’. Pragmatically this might not mean much since most people in most countries aren’t exactly interested in facts that question their most cherished beliefs but that hardly changes those facts. Muslim in India follow a version of ‘Indo-Islam’ that is heavily influenced by Hindu strands whether they like it or not. It is very different from Islam in say the Mideast. Again no group likes its ‘popular wisdom’ questioned. But this is where the danger always lies. We massacre each other based on such fictions.
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April 25, 2014 at 2:39 PM
all 50 states of u.s are not integrated and awareness is much less comparable to indians…there was a big divide between u.k and ireland
with everything censored in china people has no role and free information but yet to see this obsession of outsider
colonial mindset
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April 25, 2014 at 1:00 PM
Whose feelings are offended by Ramayana? Raavan’s? or Kaikeyi’s ? I think religious texts unless they spew venom or recommend violence against certain groups should be considered sacrosanct in this respect.
I would accord the same respect to Bible as I expect an American to give to Bhagwad Gita.
If a religion even Hinduism prmotes casteism,genocide,discrimination, I am as against it as anyone else. I dont need an American scholar to tell me that.
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April 25, 2014 at 2:12 PM
actually there are many in North India who would be offended by the Kamban Ramayana if they read it. The latter is let’s say much closer to Ratnam’s film than anything else! And this is not to even account for many other indigenous Ramayana traditions that most people are not aware of including some tribal versions. The distinctions here are very significant. For instance it makes all the difference in the world if Raavan is an absolute villain and on the other hand some kind of Vijay-like anti-hero! The worst religious wars occur within religion as various wars between Catholics and protestants reveal from the historical record. These were absolute bloodbaths. Or for instance today Shiites and Sunnis don’t think that somehow each side just has a slightly different interpretation of the Koran! They feel the other is fundamentally wrong and there are even harsher condemnations than this which is why again in Pakistan for example (and not only here) you have them brutally murdering each other. The longest wars of religion in Indian history were actually between Buddhists and Orthodox Hindus before the former were decisively defeated. So within religion and without there are plenty who are offended. The religious views depends on this kind of exclusivity even at the level of sects. It is often an obfuscation to believe that sects are formed on the basis of trivial things. Nothing could be further from the truth. What seems trivial is really the symptom of what are fundamental differences. It might be polite liberalism to say one should respect all religions and so on and it’s certainly a view I share but this is not the view of any religion on its own. And it makes perfect sense. If you think you have a certain royal road to cosmic truths and that you have access to the deepest questions of existence you are not likely to think all of this is simply relative! But again to stress the first point it is precisely ‘within’ religion that offense is first caused. For the same reason no orthodox text or practice (which eventually passes off as the ‘common sense’ of a religion) is achieved without a rather violent struggle. Which is why once more there are all these bloody histories within all faiths that are about trying to establish orthodoxies. Once those orthodoxies are established all other voices are automatically muffled. For instance the Ramayana does not have anything like the kind of centrality in the Indian tradition the way Hindutva pretends it does. In fact the Ramayana was reinvented over more than a century as the answer to the Bible or the Koran (because these folks believed they were conquered again and again by monomaniacs and hence the problem must have been diversity!). At most one could say that the Tulasidas text has been canonical in the North but even that history is relatively recent. The Vedas are much more ancient. Why privilege the Ramayana so much? This is about a certain cultural archive but it is also about ideology. Then there is the huge caste fault-line, far greater than the religious divide. Why is it that lower castes see Hindutva or the BJP primarily as an upper caste affair? Many of them deeply distrust the Ramayana and other canonical texts because they perceive them as advancing an upper caste agenda. Which is why they often have alternative versions. I can’t hope to do justice to all these histories here but India is more a test case for the absence of any such unifying text or set of beliefs than most other contemporary societies. This was essentially a colonial construct. Anyone who wasn’t a monotheists was just a ‘Hindi’ when in fact there was no such sense for millennia of Indian history. All non-monotheists are not the same! Even today in various parts of India there are various traditions of belief (in the South for example) for which the Ramayana tradition is quite marginal or for which the entire Northern apparatus is not crucial. if you watch a 100 Tamil movies for every one Ram reference you will come across a 1000 Murugan ones (and I am being conservative). meanwhile no one in UP cares about Murugan! These examples could be multiplied. So this idea that the Ramayana is some kind of ur-text for ‘Hinduism’ is patently absurd. But the point again is that offense is often an ‘intra-religious’ affair much more than an ‘inter-religious’ one. And India of course has both. When people are killing each other brutally in riots or pogroms and destroyed each other’s mosques and temples in the name of religion do you really think they are not offended by each other’s texts?
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April 25, 2014 at 2:20 PM
Ravana as a Dravidian icon but people like Karunanidhi’s party is vehemently anti-Brahmin
The anti-God issue didn’t click, the remnants of the anti-North plank is the language issue and the anti-Brahmin plank has been fulfilled and thus has become irrelevant. The false controversy of Rama vs Ravana sells for those who want to live in the past, in vain
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April 25, 2014 at 2:39 PM
Dravidian politics for the longest time had a strong rationalist strain which entailed a certain hostility to religion (this has nothing to do with Raavan.. that’s a separate discussion). But this too is a case in point. Hard to imagine a major party in the North with that kind of platform. As for the rest they keep playing musical chairs there. Communist politics has been a very important part of Keralite history. Again can’t imagine this in the North (I mean North India proper though there have been important archives here.. for instance no film on Bhagat Singh talks about his real Communist leanings.. there are documents he wrote to this effect though the history has been repressed over time). This precisely makes my point. As for this being a thing of the past keep dreaming. One election or two doesn’t alter larger historical patterns.
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April 25, 2014 at 2:45 PM
again factually wrong spin
where is kolkata which was ruled by your beloved communists..
what is rationality to you is chauvinism regionalism and north has many so called regional player
for all rationality one see movie stars and script writers turning into rational icons riding on reel life and even has religious temple attached to them
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April 25, 2014 at 2:53 PM
Not sure what your question is. The Communists were there for decades. Everything gets stale beyond a point! As for whether their rule was worthwhile or not that’s a completely different debate. But if you are interested in numbers you should be willing to digest these as well:
http://m.outlookindia.com/story.aspx/?sid=4&aid=239615
http://www.outlookindia.com/article.aspx?289889
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April 25, 2014 at 2:50 PM
http://news.oneindia.in/cj/dipin-d/2010/bhagat-singh-died-for-nationalism-not-communism.html
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April 25, 2014 at 2:55 PM
leaving aside this rag you’ve quoted (you have a knack for picking these!) being communist and being nationalist are hardly contradictory. You fight for a nation that you then wish to be communist! Anyway here’s something in Bhagat Singh’s own hand:
http://www.marxists.org/archive/bhagat-singh/1931/02/02.htm
these are all inconvenient truths for many on the Right!
anyway I’m done debating ‘fiction’ for today!
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April 25, 2014 at 3:03 PM
may be you have not see the rebuttal of each…sometime communist and sometime terrorist in cbse text books
anything left
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April 25, 2014 at 3:22 PM
http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/india/Bhagat-Singh-Azad-were-terrorists-says-UK-historian/articleshow/30496595.cms
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April 25, 2014 at 2:16 PM
why my comments are deleted
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April 25, 2014 at 2:27 PM
koran arabic and hindu india like islamic india bla bla and somebody said there was no settlement and withdrawal
Penguin has agreed to withdraw Wendy Doniger’s book “The Hindus” from India & destroy all copies. See agreement below http://t.co/VrgYDVgnwG—
Rajiv Malhotra (@RajivMessage)
photo/1 (see what it is)
how many employees of penguin where threatened in last 4 years or any restriction on sale…mutual consent on the time of arrival of verdict and face saving exercise
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April 25, 2014 at 2:29 PM
nothing was deleted. More than one link and it goes into moderation. Sometimes you repeat stuff, for example you provide a link and then you put up the story in that link separately. I sometimes reduce such clutter though that didn’t happen today.
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April 25, 2014 at 2:08 PM
koran arabic and hindu india like islamic india bla bla and somebody said there was no settlement and withdrawal
(see what it is)
how many employees of penguin where threatened in last 4 years or any restriction on sale…mutual consent on the time of arrival of verdict and face saving exercise
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April 25, 2014 at 4:00 PM
Brilliant discussion by all of u folks
( though owned by my ‘protege’ Amy)
Keep it up guyz..
Satyam: stop modifying / deleting people’s comments
Only a few can deal / cope with it/ cheers
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April 26, 2014 at 6:38 AM
Came across this relevant huffpost article …raises some counterpoints
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/vamsee-juluri/the-scholars-an-alternati_b_4787082.html
Some good points also by mr/ms bandra nri.
“Take the issue about Swami Vivekananda, his position on “meat” is well documented”- plz elaborate thanx
“Ganesha’s trunk symbolizes a “limp phallus”; his broken tusk is a symbol for the castration-complex of the Hindu male; his large belly is a proof of the Hindu male’s enormous appetite for oral sex. Shiva, is interpreted as a womanizer, who encourages ritual rape, prostitution and murder, and his worship is linked to violence and destruction. ” –
IF this is what these books are saying, it’s totally avoidable & need to be curbed.
I’m all for freedom of speech et al. But the problems that religion is a highly emotive issue for most and a certain mob/hate frenzy comes in, making the already murky waters even more open to misinterpretation and mudslinging
Even if certain ‘wrongs’ were done in the past, as long as they are not being glorified or practised nowadays, there’s not much need to ‘expose’ or elaborate on them now esp when it can lead to discord or violence. Similarly for eg, i don’t get the point why film after film is needed every year to ‘bring to life’ the ‘horrors of slavery’ as in 20 years a slave etc. The actual ‘intenth’ of these ‘exposes’ even if genuine, is inadvertently hijacked by other motivated & perverse lobbies..
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April 26, 2014 at 7:42 AM
On those extracts those are indeed from the book. However you present them decontextualized which is always a problem. But leaving this aside there is a great stress on sexuality in ancient Indian representation (artistic or otherwise) and beyond. As Foucault might have said we are the “other Victorians” which is why we find this problematic. But again decontextualized these passages carry a certain shock value. Doniger often has a thematic organization where she explores different themes in the history. So she might look at the evolution of caste over time (caste after the British isn’t the same as it was before they arrived let alone being the way it was in earlier ages.. not that one was better or the other worse just that it was often differently configured.. for instance the category of the so-called ‘untouchable’ was greatly intensified, expanded, if not invented by the British) or the role sexuality played (here there’s tons of evidence.. this is the culture that gave us the kamasutra.. we might be prudes about it, they weren’t!), the changing understanding of the Mahabharata, so on and so forth. In doing so she obviously looks at sources that the bourgeois tradition led by one orthodoxy or another has repressed. Here too the British intervention is decisive. Because it was the colonizer, especially in the Victorian age, who was most repelled by certain celebrations of sexuality and who then classified it as some kind of primitive expression of ‘unbounded’ licentiousness and so forth.
And this gets me to the more important. The article here is more than a little hysterical. Disappointingly for a professor it relies on the vaguest generalities. He invokes Said but this is precisely what Said never did. Said was never hysterical in any sense. His breakthrough book was about the ‘construction’ of the ‘Orient’ by the British and French colonizer. In other words an imaginary space then filled in by ‘knowledge’ about the Oriental native. This is precisely the same dynamic that played out with respect to India or china or Africa and so forth. In each case the ‘local’ was defined through the prism of colonial vision. Entire bodies of knowledge and inquiry were set up this way which over time became decisive. This is precisely one of the reasons why colonialism was an event and why it didn’t end just because the colonizer physically exited. We still consciously or unconsciously live with those bodies of knowledge. So for instance when we understand Indian history or religion or culture or sociology or politics etc etc etc we are still dealing with that British frame whether we know it or not. The entire political fabric of India exists because of British models, the organization of Indian states reveals that heritage, the Bollywood territory system still exhibits British realities, it would take an encyclopedia to itemize all these examples. And yes Hindutva is in the most precise ways through and through imbricated with Western ideologies.
My point here isn’t that all of this is simply ‘bad’ and must be left behind. First of all the historical layering is simply too complex in this or any other situation to be simply taken apart and restored to some original state. You can’t rewind history. You can change the names of streets and fountains but you still can’t hit the rewind button. what would another good example be of this? Take the contemporary Mideast. Every single thing that happens there today is a set of events that can be traced back to British and French colonial decisions. Because the entire Mideast was carved up by them in its present form. The Mideast in the contemporary sense of the term simply did not exist before this. And how do we understand the Mideast? Using the very same bodies of knowledge that the colonizer bequeathed to us. This was Said’s point. But even after one understands this one cannot simply walk away from the history. We are all, each one of us, marked by a similar colonial intervention. It is not that we are Indians, then the Muslim conquerors arrived, we continued to be Indians, then the British arrived, we were still the same Indians (of course there is no ‘Hindu’ India to begin with the way the Right defines it). Each such intervention changed India permanently. There is no Indian ‘essence’ that is preserved over time. There are continuities but there are great disruptions too. And guess who invented this idea of ‘eternal India’? Once again the British!
So in a hysterical piece like the one you’ve cited herein lies the problem. The very categories you (the writer here) try to defend against scholars like Doniger are in the first place colonial inventions and/or permanently marked by colonial history. If anything one of the huge moves in Western academia more at least half a century has been to account for all these facets of colonialism in a global sense and try to retrieve the pre-colonial or even where this is not possible to identify those other strands of history and experience that were repressed or distorted by the colonizer. It’s a very difficult project and one cannot just get done with it. In India there has come about in this same period the whole school of postcolonial history and historiography that is a model of scholarship in very many ways and has influenced others around the world. In every case the results are eye-opening. Each one of these ‘Indian’ authors is doing work in his or her field that is more or less aligned with Doniger’s project. In each instance the ‘excavation’ reveals something unusual about religion or caste or race or ethnicity or political configuration and so on. So Doniger becomes an easy target for the usual xenophobic reasons but these guys should check out what Indian scholars are themselves doing!
We all love Sholay and Deewar. These are not just rooted Indian films, they also owe a heavy debt to certain non-Indian models. And one could say this about very many important films from different ages of Bombay film history. So it happens at every level. Within India though there is also a ‘Sanskrit’ hegemony which has been profoundly destabilizing and worse from non-Sanskritic cultures. In the South there is often a reaction against this but once again once that event has happened there is no going back. So Tamil or Malayalam have a heavy admixture of Sanskrit vocabulary. Tamil literature was influenced by Sanskrit models even in ancient times. There is simply no walking away from history. Tribals are one-sixth of the Indian population. In many parts of Eastern and Central India their word for ‘Hindu’ is ‘diku’ or outsider. They as the ‘original inhabitants’ or the ‘adivasis’ consider the ‘Hindu’ the outsider who conquered. Which of course testifies to the historical experience. Vedic or Sanskrit is an Indo-European language and this was brought to India (can’t get into the entire linguistic history here). At that point there were ‘Dravidians’ already there as well as tribals (whether they were the first or not who knows? This is only about recorded history.. no one is really ‘first’). This isn’t a history that Hindutva likes or accepts! But the historical evidence from the linguistic and beyond is overwhelming. So again these histories are very complex, always politicized. The question is whether one just prefers the self-serving myth or if one is interested in the facts such as these can be most reasonably determined.
There is nothing new in this sense in India. In every culture there are these self-serving illusions, ‘narcissisms’ if you will. These range from ideas of national purity to cultural and ethnical and racial and religious essentialism. In each case one might argue similarly and in each case the ‘natives’ are often upset. It is then easy not to engage with the substance of things and attack the messenger. It’s human nature. You feel you’re losing your identity if you are made to lose your most cherished ideas of history and culture and so forth. No one said the ‘truth’ was easy! Whether at a personal level or at the level of community.
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April 29, 2014 at 2:10 AM
satyam,can you explain the changing understanding of mahabharata?in what ways it has changed?
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April 26, 2014 at 8:38 AM
It is like Raja Sen criticising an aamir khan film.
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April 26, 2014 at 8:49 AM
Here is the problem, if you do not already know what Swami Vivekananda says about meat then pursuing a critical discussion of passages within WD’s book vis a vis SV is not practical or perhaps even possible.
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April 26, 2014 at 9:39 AM
Have been a bit lazy to read n post lately…anyhow a quick one.
There’s a difference between constructive alternatism, originality/innovation from wanton provocative mischief. The latter has some entertainment gun quotient at personal/ localised milieus but at a large scale national religious levels where entire groups can feel targeted, it’s effects can range from random nuisance to discord to violence.
There’s also a role for those engaged in sociocultural epidemiological historical case profiling etc but there’s a space for it and a scientific sensible way to go on about it.
A quick google is all it’s needed-so chill mr/ms NRI
http://www.vivekananda.net/ByTopic/MeatEating.html
See the context–anyhow this isn’t directly relevant to the debate. Also vegetarianism isn’t a cardinal point anyways.
http://muse.jhu.edu/journals/journal_for_early_modern_cultural_studies/summary/v002/2.1.von-sneidern.html
A sample of Wendy’s mental preoccupations …
That’s how zealots get active.
Now if a shrewd zealot morphs Wendy’s face onto a scantily clad body engaged in perverted acts–
& puts up a disclaimer that this is a fake image and it is only a metaphorical expression of what Wendy donigers mental maps appear to another ‘free speech’ individual-& goes around postin that image –is it technically wrong?
Yes or no–but then if he claims that this expression is also some piece of art and this is given ‘sanction’ by other ‘artistic individuals’ who ‘rate’ &’critically analyse’ this image–the whole facade goes a bit too far…
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April 26, 2014 at 2:26 PM
WD career spans five decades. She is Mircea Eliade Distinguished Service Professor of the History of Religions; also in the Department of South Asian Languages and Civilizations, the Committee on Social Thought, and the College
– See more at: http://divinity.uchicago.edu/wendy-doniger#sthash.QixBqec3.dpuf
Yet the excellence she has demonstrated has no weight on those who attacks her. She is being challenged by people who have not even read her book leave alone studied her field of expertise. You seems to equate your “googled” knowledge on par with her.
Somehow everything but the substance has become paramount.
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April 26, 2014 at 3:01 PM
I have no issues with donigers ‘5 decades of experience’ & her PhDs (& personally can get where this stuff is coming from) but it’s the likely reception & repercussions of the ‘public release’ of such material which are problematic
Besides -even on a purely ‘practical’ or common sense level—
““Ganesha’s trunk symbolizes a “limp phallus”; his broken tusk is a symbol for the castration-complex of the Hindu male; his large belly is a proof of the Hindu male’s enormous appetite for oral sex. Shiva, is interpreted as a womanizer, who encourages ritual rape, prostitution and murder, and his worship is linked to violence and destruction. ” forget Hinduism or Christianity etc
Pray explain us how such an ‘interpretation’ came out from the ‘research’. Were all the gods sex-maniacs ?
And why is she perceiving every ‘rod-like’ object as a ‘phallic symbol’? Maybe the problem (& solution is somewhere else)?
Btw do tell us about your ‘tastes’ & favorites actors /films (so I can get a handle of where u r coming from)…
Bandra nri–On a serious note–maybe u r new here —–
But I’m not comfortable with such ‘obscene stuff’ in general
Infact I’m a bit ‘shy’ when it comes to such things 🙂
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April 26, 2014 at 5:23 PM
Honestly ask yourself, what does your preference, comfort, knowledge, ignorance etc etc have to be with WD’s freedom to pursue her profession ? Do you (or me) in the scheme of things really matter vis a vis WD ?. Till some few moments ago you did not know SV’s positions. Now after a clicks on Google you feel you are empowered to limit/restrict a renowned scholar/professor from a very reputable university.
Do you think, WD is just some Google University Alumni who accidentally rose up the ranks at UNIVERSITY OF CHICAGO and one day found herself named ACLS Haskins Prize Lecturer for 2015
– See more at: http://divinity.uchicago.edu/wendy-doniger-named-acls-haskins-prize-lecturer-2015#sthash.u5LfNuXI.dpuf
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April 26, 2014 at 7:49 PM
That incredibly ironic moment when Alex disapproving of objects perceived as phallic! 😛
It is puerile to take a few of the most seemingly sensationalist lines of an author’s entire oeuvre and quote them completely out of context. Also, if you find these sentences so staggeringly offensive that you think the book should be revoked and pulped in order not to incite violence, why on earth do you keep quoting them continuously?!
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May 9, 2014 at 2:25 PM
M wanted to have sex with is new bride (# X) and guests were not leaving. So he immediately came up with a “vision” and came up with a immediate religious dictat. “after marriage the guests should leave immediately”. I should put all his “visions” in a book and I will immediately be fatwa-oed and possibly be killed. WD is one lucky one to pick on a most tolrant people in the world.
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April 26, 2014 at 3:06 PM
Hindus take what is good from their religion and discard what is not relevant. Idol worship is only symbolic and has become a tradition than something serious. I dont know why scholars want to attribute things and fantasize. One need not read these books in detail as these findings are fantasizing a fantasy called hindu religion. A sort of timepass. I t will hurt some, it will not have any effect on others.
Much ado about nothing. Can we imagine hinduism without idol worship and rituals? Take a hindu marriage, hindu festival or hindu funeral rites. They represent what hinduism is to many who believe int them and no one is compelled to follow them. Many can be hindus just for name sake.
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April 28, 2014 at 11:52 PM
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May 10, 2014 at 10:02 AM
but its amusing to see why u.n only keeps awarding him even by calling name
http://archive.indianexpress.com/news/gujarat-wins-un-award-for-public-service/637910/
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May 10, 2014 at 10:03 AM
http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/India/Gujarat-won-over-285-awards-under-UPA-rule/articleshow/34795383.cms
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April 29, 2014 at 3:32 AM
Thanks munna.
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May 2, 2014 at 10:12 AM
must read piece on kejriwal. by Aatish Taseer in Open Magazine–
He is not so much the aam aadmi as he is the caricature of an aam aadmi. He is like the Punjab Power employee Shah Rukh Khan plays in Rab ne Bana di Jodi, who, out of a kind of shame at his ordinariness, adopts a Bergerac-esque proxy to win the love of his wife.
http://www.openthemagazine.com/article/voices/the-runaway-messiah
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May 6, 2014 at 2:49 PM
Left liberals, as they call themselves, have realised that defeat is certain and with this defeat they will lose that ‘elite thinkers’ tag. And the plum posts, foreign trips and bungalows and other perks. There is a reverse revolution taking place. It’s the innocent masses, who have suffered intellectual injustice, they are raising their voices. It’s the organically secular majority of Bharat, which has been made to feel like communal evils, that is asserting its identity. Modi is just their face. So do not make the mistake of thinking that its Modi vs others.
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May 7, 2014 at 5:38 AM
http://www.dnaindia.com/pune/report-kadam-will-win-pune-namo-won-t-be-pm-astrologers-1975025
In this hare and tortoise race, the tortoise may spring a surprise.
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May 7, 2014 at 6:07 AM
Every Kalinga produces an Ashoka. I think after winning this messy prized battle, NoMo will turn human.
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May 8, 2014 at 11:53 AM
Hilarious piece by The Great Bong—-
If you have any doubt as to how tolerant and let’s say “anti-fascist” our media is one need look only at how they conduct themselves. Recently a major, highly respected news outlet was found to have issued a notice to their employees as to not eat non-veg food in their canteens because it offended vegetarians. The term for this is “food fascism” and it was used, I think, by the self-same paper in another context for someone else, because others must be judged by different standards than the ones we apply for ourselves. When questioned, the proprietors of this anti-fascist paper cast the problem in a most logically consistent framework that can be summarized as “Our private property. Our prerogative”. The reason why I use the word “consistent” is because the same newspaper called out “housing apartheid” when owners of apartments refused to rent their premises to people of another faith following the principle of “Our private property. Our prerogative”, a line of reasoning that sounds even more amazingly awesome when you realize that a corporation is not really as “private a place” as one’s house. I mean if the said newspaper was a vegetarian restaurant serving vegetarians one could understand restriction on employees given that employee behavior violates its business policies, but given that it prints papers, how restricting the food choices for their minorities is nothing but heavy handed majoritarianism is something lesser minds, the type of people who read its main rival and know the birthday of Katrina Kaif but not the name of the nation’s Vice President, might struggle to understand.
http://greatbong.net/2014/05/08/fascism-is-coming/
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May 8, 2014 at 5:28 PM
Clearly the newspaper is wrong. Hence this does not make the condo association right.
BTW, the Indian community in Singapore is equally upset by signs that Indians need not apply for rental apartments.
Whenever someone is restricted because of age, race, religion, gender, etc IT IS wrong.
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May 8, 2014 at 6:30 PM
Housing Co-ops in NYC apply all sorts of rules for renters/buyers. These rules have withstood the test of judicial scrutiny in the mecca of liberalism (ie NYC). The purveyors of equal rights will be surprised to see gross discrimination by the Co-op boards which go unchallenged, or cannot even be challenged in courts of law. And more surprising will be the fact that when rich liberals get into these boards, they themselves will uphold the same discriminatory practices. Ultimately, when it comes to private housing property, the rule of law grants a wide leeway to interpretation of rules. Everyone wants to protect their investments, it is always money over morals.
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May 8, 2014 at 10:21 PM
I am sure there are exceptions here and there, but I do not think there is any Housing Assoc that regularly and blatantly discriminates on the basis is age, race, religion, gender etc.
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May 9, 2014 at 4:37 PM
Nothing is ever blatant. All sorts of discrimination is practiced under-wraps, and the rejected applicants have no recourse of law to fall back on. It is a pain to buy one of these co-ops and an even bigger pain to sell, mostly because the governing boards have wide discretionary powers to reject, and they do robustly enforce these powers.
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May 9, 2014 at 5:23 PM
I think the Law discovered the theory of permutation and combination (co-relation), long, long ago.
Most cases where the Coop refuses are either financial or “legal” related.
Needless to say the board does not want to drive the price of its investment/nest eggs down by being too difficult.
One thing is for sure any stink of racism in US is dealt with swiftly. A recent example being Don Sterling
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May 8, 2014 at 11:17 PM
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May 9, 2014 at 11:55 AM
A good leader, someone deserving respect does not sound a dog whistle. Diplomacy 101 means not using loaded words.
Clearly, as has been pointed out by Arnab, in this interview, Modi uses dog whistle in his manifesto. Further more Modi’s defense is very lame.
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May 10, 2014 at 9:36 AM
http://www.rediff.com/news/interview/ls-election-arnab-modi-was-a-picture-of-complete-confidence/20140509.htm
arnab goswami is new fan
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May 10, 2014 at 9:45 AM
after ec another mockery of judiciary
http://www.niticentral.com/2014/05/10/ahead-of-varanasi-poll-gangster-ansari-released-bjp-questions-move-222075.html
Mafia-don-turned politician Mukhtar Ansari was released on Saturday on custody parole from Central Jail in Agra for a day to campaign in Lok Sabha election.
Escorted by a large posse of security personnel, Ansari, whose Quami Ekta Dal is supporting Congress in Varanasi and who is contesting from Ghosi constituency, was released after his wife Afshan furnished a bond of Rs 1.27 lakh.
The gangster-turned politician, who lost to BJP leader Murli Manohar Joshi by just 17,000 votes in Varanasi in 2009, was taken in an ambulance to his constituency of Ghosi accompanied by his wife and other members of the family.
Soon after his release, BJP questioned the timings of the release of Ansari, facing trial in a case under stringent Maharashtra Control of Organised Crime Act (MCOCA) for allegedly being a member of an organised crime syndicate, was granted custody parole on May 1 for 10 days by a Delhi court for campaigning in Lok Sabha poll.
Ansari will campaign in Ghosi, Balia and Mau districts on Saturday.
A CBI court last Saturday granted Ansari custody parole till May 10 for election campaigning. He is contesting from Ghosi constituency on a Quami Ekta Dal ticket.
History sheeter Mukhtar Ansari’s party announces support for Congress in Varanasi
The mafia-don-turned politician, is a member of the UP Assembly from Mau.
Purvanchal’s dreaded gangster Mukhtar Ansari-led Quami Ekta Dal had earlier announced its support for Congress candidate Ajay Rai, charged in several criminal cases, against BJP’s Prime Ministerial candidate Narendra Modi in Varanasi.
Mukhtar Ansari announces support to Congress’s Ajay Rai in Varanasi
Ansari had in 2009 was in fray in Varanasai against senior BJP leader Murli Manohar Joshi and lost the election by a margin of nearly 18000 votes.
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May 10, 2014 at 9:52 AM
http://www.dnaindia.com/india/report-jamaat-e-islami-hind-extends-support-to-arvind-kejriwal-in-varanasi-1986016
and icing on cake
btw just mood from bhu(now iit) indicates modi may win in between 1 to 2 lakh margin…
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May 10, 2014 at 11:29 AM
Depending upon one’s pre-disposition, It is amazing how the same thing takes on different meanings. One might see Arnab fawning over Modi in the above interview, someone else might read the same and see that as Arnab leaving some money on the dresser on his way out.
But given the head lock he put Modi into, it is natural he would try to dust off any resulting residue on his credibility by saying something “nice” too. This is Arnab making sure that the brand Arnab is seen as fair & neutral.
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May 10, 2014 at 3:19 PM
known commie code of colouring things with lame argument can be judged how when siddharth rangaran started talking about so called “dog whistle politics” when actually someone bluntly talked about bangladeshi refugees…people are aware and so called spin can’t be done
The Illegal Migrants Determination by Tribunal or IMDT Act was enacted in 1983 by Indira Gandhi government. The act made it difficult to deport illegal immigrants from Assam and also they are allowed to vote for Congress party in elections
“it was the pioneer of dog whistle politics in india ”
other was 42nd amendment in constitution called secularism during emergency
btw dont what will happen on 16th may but on same day in 1996(16th may ) atal bihari vajpayee government was sworn it and lasted for 13 days and by how many votes he lost vote of no confidence…only 1 and ironically the whole main stream media was silent for cash for vote scam in parliament and how a man mohan singh saved his government
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May 10, 2014 at 3:51 PM
Rockstar
Forget SR, Forget IMDT Act, Forget IG. We can talk about that in the future (near future if needed).
Let’s us focus on Arnab-Modi interview. Let’s focus on Arnab’s question on Modi’s “Manifesto”. Now THAT IS CLASSICAL “Dog Whistle”.
Nothing that happened before can justify Modi’s Dog Whitsle. Hence SR, IMDT, IG etc etc cannot justify anything. Something reprehensible is reprehensible.
Worst is the very weak defense by Modi. It would have been far better if he had said, “I am wrong” . He should have apologized and promised to correct the manifesto. He should have said that indeed he believed in protection for ALL and will do everything possible to remove any doubt on that issue.
I would had respect for Modi had he made amends. Instead he chose to double down. I think this too some day will find its way in a John Oliver set piece. My worst fear is that Modi will become the PM and then we will all turn into a laughing stock. Wherever he goes (foreign country), there will be the same charges discussed again and again in the media. The attention will always be on Modi’s alleged racist leanings rather than the issues.
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May 10, 2014 at 11:48 PM
doesn’t matter what you think as its personal but contrary to that some is talking about governance and on issues unlike alternative who avoid that
respect doesn’t come for those who rule without any accountabiliy(imagine a mainstream leader like sonia gandhi who hasn’t given interview for decade)
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May 10, 2014 at 11:58 PM
http://www.mediacrooks.com/2014/05/the-real-mass-murderers.html#.U270mnamlyY
he mass murderers of journalism:
I call Barkha, Arnab and Rajdeep the lowest BAR in journalism. Degeneration of TV news owes them a great debt. Drama, sensationalism, fake news and even absolute lies characterise their TV channels. Despite their contempt for the man and their consistent loathing, all of them desire an interview with Narendra Modi. Like a jealous poodle Rajdeep even ridicules other journalists who manage an interview with Modi. So what happens when one of these “news traders” (as Modi calls them) does get an interview? He makes an absolute sham of it. That’s what Arnab Goswami did. He didn’t have any real questions for Modi except a couple of stray ones on illegal immigration and Indo-Pak relations.
A man who could be PM is with you and all that the gasbag Arnab could ask him was about frivolous “Neech” politics and mundane questions on 2002 that have been asked a zillion times already. They really don’t know what to ask the man. I think more than obliging Arnab with an interview it is Modi who wanted to badly slap the moron for his pathetic behaviour as a news editor. Arnab has been batting for Congress, particularly Mrs Vadra, as if his life depended on it for more than a month. Even an idiot can tell that such campaigning for Congress can’t come free and had to come with a great payoff. Modi was scoring free hits off a guy who otherwise screams a lot but became a rat once a giant was in front of him.
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May 11, 2014 at 12:10 AM
Rockstar
I guess, now you want to discuss THE MEDIA (Arnab, Barkha & Co), and not the Dog Whistle ?
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May 11, 2014 at 12:18 AM
i am discussing content not random blabbering
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May 11, 2014 at 8:19 AM
Rockstar
Except at this point we are trying to just focus on one question. Media can be discussed later.
So let’s get back to the matter Arnab raised with Modi on the manifest. Why don’t you say whether you too think the discriminatory & restrictive word used is appropriate ? Modi says that his intent was to be inclusive, he says he stand for a right to return for ALL, but strangely (sick) still defends the language in the Manifest, what do you say ?
Do you agree with Modi on the rights for all (not for just one community) ? Do you believe that is his intent ?
Do you agree with Arnab that the language should be more inclusive ? Especially given existing and lingering allegations against Modi.
Why is Modi not changing the controversial words in the Manifest ?
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May 10, 2014 at 6:03 PM
Persecuted Hindus living outside India can only go to India for refuge. If Muslims outside India find themselves persecuted, they should go find refuge in the 50 other Islamic countries. Was one partition in 1947 not already done to provide an Islamic refuge to the so-called persecuted Indian (of pre-1947 origin) muslims? Wasn’t Pakistan already created to be a refuge for persecuted Indian Muslims? So why should India be taking on that burden once again?
Why then should the BJP change anything in their manifesto? I am actually disappointed that Modi did not make the 1947 distinction crystal clear.
Do the seculars think that India should re-accept Muslims from Pak/Bangla because they feel persecuted in said countries? If that be the case, the seculars should also call for a re-unification of the sub-continent, which will be a wholesome solution to the issue of persecuted people across the present borders within the sub-continent. I mean seriously, this secular pandering has stretched too far, beyond any logical reasoning.
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May 10, 2014 at 7:42 PM
Only in a dark corner of a dementedd mind one can believe that the price of partition was paid exclusively by one community OR India was created exclusively for one community. I suggest you look at the Indian flag (a Tri Colored testimony) to understand all race and religions are equal under the law. India was, is and will be for all Indians.
This matter is about Human Rights, and equal access to all privileges.
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May 11, 2014 at 12:04 AM
Modi will be more secular than the so called secularists. He is using RSS and Hindu card to gain personal glory Just wait and watch. The hindus who supported him will be disappointed while the muslims need not fear anything. Muslims will be more safe under Modi as he has a reputation to protect in international circles. Pakistan will be happy, China will be happy, separatists will be happy. Only hardcore hindus will be disappointed. See how he treated Pravin Togadiya.
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May 11, 2014 at 12:16 AM
just laugh at quality of comments…kuch bhi
only person who will be unhappy if he rules for sometime will be opposition…even a modi if elected will take 1-2 years to cleaar this deep mess created
togadiya campaigned and favoured congress in last assembly election and so do bukhari…
hardcore hindus along with other leaders are not issuing sermons for votes but others are doing
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May 11, 2014 at 2:09 AM
Many who vote for BJP are for meritocracy, not reservations based on caste. By proclaiming that he is an OBC, what message does he send to this group who detest the very word reservation? This is a clear instance of appeasement towards OBCs who form the largest chunk of hindu vote base.
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May 11, 2014 at 2:17 AM
but he hasn’t opted for reservation and neither ever endorsed it..thats why mayawati and karunanidhi never reached where he is all due to merit
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May 9, 2014 at 1:01 PM
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May 10, 2014 at 3:40 AM
It will be interesting to see a new government. Hope one party will get clear majority so that it need not depend on regional parties who hijack the government and blackmail them.
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May 10, 2014 at 10:49 AM
What’s your prediction sanju–who will win how many seats?
In fact folks — it will be worth getting a prediction exercise –just like box office –let’s see who all can predict…
Election box office prediction accuracy ….
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May 11, 2014 at 2:45 PM
” that the price of partition was paid exclusively by one community OR India was created exclusively for one community. I suggest you look at the Indian flag (a Tri Colored testimony) to understand all race and religions are equal under the law. India was, is and will be for all Indians.
This matter is about Human Rights, and equal access to all privileges.”
No one is denying human rights to those who chose to stay in India after partition, it was their decision, as the country is truely secular. India in fact provided them with a parallel personal law system which protected their religion. But even then, there were many who left to find an alternate Islamic refuge in a land which was carved out of secular India. The biggest irony in this history is that Pakistan actually stopped accepting Muslim refugees from India by the end of the 50s. There are thousands of Bihari muslims living as stateless refugees in Bangladesh because Pakistan denied them citizenship! So in retrospect, the raison-detre of partition was a total sham. The elites of Pakistan did a landgrab in the garb of providing an Islamic refuge. So are you suggesting that India carve out another Islamic refuge in the future? Because most certainly, unless India provides a Sharia state, the demands will never cease of be satiated. Do not be naive enough to believe otherwise.
And meanwhile Kashmiri Hindu Pandits get kicked out of an Indian state and are treated lower than pondscum, living in filthy conditions right under the nose of the Indian federal govt in New Delhi.
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May 11, 2014 at 2:57 PM
I also am not arguing that the price of partition was paid by only one community. I empathize with the Mohajirs, who had to endure an arduous deadly journey from UP/Bihar all the way to Sindh. But however, the Partition was The Solution to answer the question of providing exclusive rights to Muslim citizens of a secular pre-independent India. So it would be oxymoronic to now claim that the eviscerated contemporary India undertake another exercise to provide refuge for persecuted Muslims. It is Pakistan that has the exclusive ownership of providing said refuge, not an already truncated India.
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May 11, 2014 at 5:05 PM
NyKavi
This is not us Vs them. This is just an internal, family matter. There is no outsider or insider. India was not ever one’s community’s asset that someone just carved out it and gave to someone else. Any such thought is purely delusional.
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May 11, 2014 at 7:08 PM
NyKavi
So as to put this side bar to rest, let me state the following:
If you feel that you had, have, will have a higher/bigger claim to India as compared to some other Indian (regardless of race, religion, gender, etc), then that is a delusion.
If you feel that you sacrificed/suffered more during partition than some other Indian (regardless of race, religion, gender etc), then that is your delusion.
Pre-Partition India belonged to ALL Indians and post partition, India still belongs to ALL Indians who live here. Every Indian is precious. No single person or group is more precious vis-a-vis others.
Now what Pakistan is or not is something I allow the Pakistanis to decide. It is not my matter. If you do care so much about Pakistan, then move to Pakistan and re-shape it into whatever you desire.
While you too are an Indian, your opinion on India does matter. But that opinion is just another opinion of an Indian. There are other opinions and other Indians too. The constitution and the Supreme Court, both say all Indians are equal, and if you imply that you are more than equal then that is your delusion. If you imply that India belongs to you more than that is your delusion.
Hence if we allow a right to return to anyone, then we will have to allow to all with Indian roots the same rights (on similar grounds), regardless of race, religion, gender, etc
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May 11, 2014 at 8:22 PM
Excuse me, who ever talked about violating the rights of other Indians?? Hold your horses dude, before accusing others of being delusional. Off course every Indian citizen has equal rights, no one here is questioning that fundamental truth.
We are talking about providing refuge to people whose ancestors lived in India. One can justify a right to refuge to every community irrespective of religion, that had migrated outside India pre-1947. But post-1947, things need to be looked differently. One cannot just start accepting non-Hindu refugees from present day Pak/Bangla.
FYI, even the PIO card is not offered to non-Hindus who have any ancestral linkage to Pak/Bangla. This is not a BJP policy, it is a policy designed by the Congress themselves, so as to deny any Indian legal rights to non-Hindus who reside in those countries. A policy for refugees has to be similar to a policy for PIOs. The BJP manifesto reflects that adequately. IMO, this new secular confusion is entirely related to electoral politics, especially to garner votes by assigning legal status to ‘infiltrators’. In this Arnab interview, Modi should have infact reminded Arnab about the PIO policy of the GOI.
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May 12, 2014 at 12:42 PM
Ab Ki Baar Modi Sarkar !!!!
Acche din aane wale hain
Italian lady mafia ( Nehru-Gandhi dynasty) days are over…
At last there is sun break through Nehruvian clouds….
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May 12, 2014 at 6:16 PM
This reminds me of a certain SM here…….
Malini Parthasarathy @MaliniP · Sep 29
It’s notable that Modi who wants to lead this multilingual country speaks only in Hindi. How does he hope to have all-India appeal?
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May 13, 2014 at 1:54 PM
Lol, as if Raul was conversing in Bengali/Tamil/Kannada/Odiya/Gujurati etc etc.
After seeing the exit polls, Liberals are all shivering everywhere. If these poll results are fulfilled, the libs will go batshit crazy on TV.
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May 13, 2014 at 3:18 PM
CoR Twitterati are digging out old tweets of these paid corrupt low IQ journos. Sickulars and libtards #BurnolFailedMoment
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May 13, 2014 at 5:20 PM
Even now they are all going blue in the face, trying to deny a Modi Wave.
One guy on NDTV claims that Modi is the ‘mukhota’ of the anti-Congress sentiment, but he is not a recipient of a pro-Modi support!
Another guy claims that unless they win 400+ seats like Rajiv did in 1984, there can be no Modi wave (off course conveniently disregarding the fact that there were no SP/BSP/TMC/BJD/TRS/NCP etc etc in 1984!).
Another claims that Rahul was half-heartedly campaigning because he had to carry the baggage of a govt he was not a part of, hence the junta is rejecting the Congress, but not supporting Modi! No answer on why Junta cud not vote for the myriad other alternate parties instead of the BJP
Expect more and more of such spaghetti logic from revered liberals in the coming days.
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May 13, 2014 at 9:57 PM
yes but don’t you think the opposite view is an equally dishonest one as well? That irrespective of how many seats Modi wins, irrespective of the kind of coalition he has to form, so on and so forth, that there will have been a Modi wave! The mere fact of his winning would be proof of this wave. But every time a government changes we don’t quite call it a wave do we? His wouldn’t even be the first BJP govt! Now could the results indicate a wave? Sure! But there are numbers that suggest waves and those that don’t.
Also it’s not reasonable to say that those other parties weren’t around then. This sounds suspiciously like the SRK fan saying (as they used to once) that Bachchan’s films were big hits in the 70s because there wasn’t satellite TV or whatever to distract people! You can only do well on the playing field you occupy, not some other. And so by argument with respect to SRK always was that his success by no means defined the limit of what was possible even in his age. Safe to say that many developments since the 90s have more or less made this case. Similarly if Modi does not get the absolute best result it’s not because other parties are around but that he couldn’t convince enough people. Or if one wishes to read this in more historic terms to win absolute victories in India you also need to appeal to the largest cross-section of people. If you limit yourself in certain ways you also limit the magnitude of your victory. So these things are not unconnected. The very historical forces that brought about the rise of the BJP also enabled many of these other parties to appear (caste or otherwise). One cannot then somehow look at the BJP side of this poll as some kind of post-Congress constant and treat the others as irritants. The opposite is true. In a post-Congress age both the BJP and something like the BSP are equal symptoms. This frustrates BJP supporters but they have unfortunately (for themselves) produced inadequate definitions of Indianness or Hinduness or what have you. If all of India agreed with their definitions we wouldn’t need these other parties! If for instance lower castes in many parts of India simply thought that the BJP or Hindutva sense of history in all sorts of matters was the right one they would vote for it. They clearly don’t agree! One could multiply these examples.
But in any case, and getting back to the original point, one cannot call everything that results in a new government a wave. It might be this but it won’t be this in every instance.
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May 14, 2014 at 10:09 AM
Satyam,
It is not as simple as making an analogy to SRK!! If an analyst on TV makes a ridiculous comparison to the 1984 results, he ought to be tarred and feathered. Post-1990, no party has ever gotten a simple majority all by itself. Seriously, why would anyone want to disregard post-Mandal politics. Indian politics history is divided between the pre-Mandal and post-Mandal periods. The year 1990 was a watershed year, it empowered caste-based parties which were non-existent before that year. Also, many of these regional satraps were Congressmen in the 80s. When Rajiv bagged 400+, he had all these regional powercenters as part of the Congress. Is it also not telling that all of them broke off from the Congress simply because they did not want to become servants of the dynasty? An independent Sharad Pawar is able to negotiate better deals for himself with an equal standing to his ex-masters.
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May 14, 2014 at 12:20 PM
actually the sociology behind cinema is not at all simple. This would be my first point. But I’m not going to get into details here. For instance the degree to which an entire new Indian moment can be mapped onto SRK’s key films and so on. To get to your other point however again it’s simply a misunderstanding to start at the level of political parties and dynasties and what not and consider these the ‘origin’ of things rather than larger historical forces. The Congress was an umbrella party that contained all these various constituencies and which was also greatly helped by the prestige of giants. eventually and for reasons too complex to get into here the Congress could no longer contain all these disparate elements within itself. This wasn’t because people got bored of dynasties. Could they really be getting bored of something they indulge in at every level of their lives? We see this in cinema and we saw this as recently as the last election (nationally) and we see this in a number of state elections. The cinema example is again relevant. It is not just that stars throw their children at the audience. The latter is already interested in them. Which is why you never get actors who don’t belong to important parents getting comparable initials in their debuts, all else being equal. It’s not even close. The audience simply isn’t interested. The other thing to be said here is that everyone likes to selectively celebrate the ‘masses’. But presumably they don’t only speak when Narendra Modi is being elected. They also do so when the ‘Italian’ everyone hates is being chosen (or her family or whatever). At this point the ‘will of the majority’ is suddenly forgotten and she’s considered this illegitimate foreign import. Well if those voting thought this was so much of a problem presumably they wouldn’t have voted for the Congress at all in the past! But once more, and getting to the more critical point, the fragmentation of the Congress for more than a couple of decades now (whether they win or not they are not in the position they once were), the rise of caste politics (regional political parties were already very important in the South.. then there were other left forces in Bengal and Kerala to take two central examples), the rise of Hindutva, specially the last two since the mid-80s or so are linked to this fading of the Congress. This is once more about larger historical patterns. No personality could have kept these forces at bay for very long. One could argue that Indira Gandhi’s authoritarianism at very many levels was precisely a response to this already underway fragmentation. But the latter shouldn’t be understood democracy. It is simply about greater democracy. The problem once again is that one only supports democracy when the party one is a partisan of wins but considers everything else illegitimate whether it is left politics or caste parties or whatever. My argument against Modi isn’t that he’s somehow illegitimate, I know people are voting for him. But I have never considered the ‘masses’ to be a supreme principle whether in cinema or in politics. It all depends on what the contexts are. Otherwise the masses voted for Hitler too! Opposing someone on ideological grounds is very different from considering them illegitimate in the ‘democratically elected’ sense. In any case it’s a complete misunderstanding to think that these political parties have suddenly mushroomed or fallen out of the sky. All these moments are linked to the same historical forces. Put differently the idea that you could have a BJP rise without a simultaneous rise of caste politics (to take the obvious example) or that you could have a fading of Congress (again as it has taken place over more than two decades whether they’ve won or not) with the BJP simply supplanting it and nothing else happening is a fantasy. And it betrays one’s worldview. Why? because one might think there are only two options but clearly the political system offers a lot more. Coalition politics in this sense might be deeply frustrating but it again indexes the changing contours of the country. It isn’t about the fading of the Nehru-Gandhi dynasty or any other dynasty. Similarly once upon a time there was just the Congress at the national level and then there were regional parties. These things change and personalities cannot alter these tides of history though important figures can be pivotal in various ways. There can be a politician who is an ‘event’ which is to say hugely influential at a given historical moment but he does not create history all on his own. But inasmuch as there is still the possibility of absolute majorities it is much more likely to come more a more inclusive political vision, not a more divisive one. Of course one must also consider how a shift of a very few percentage points producers great numbers one way or the other in a parliamentary system. One shouldn’t pretend this is a presidential system with direct voting or something.
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May 14, 2014 at 12:21 PM
Sure talking-heads on TV say ridiculous things but it’s not as if the Modi partisans either in the media or on blogs are models of cool analysis and restraint!
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May 14, 2014 at 10:39 AM
Also, after a generation of caste-based parties that provided a sense of empowerment to the lower castes, many aspirational segments within them have gotten frustrated with their own leaderships. The Development-Governance Mantra by Modi has found resonance amongst them, and the results (if one goes by these polls) will prove that caste equations are indeed being broken. The problem with liberals is that they want to permanently stamp the ‘circa-1991 Hindutva bogeyman’ on the new BJP. They cannot fathom the fact that BJP has re-invented itself, while all the other parties have continued sleeping in their 1990 avatars.
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May 14, 2014 at 2:36 PM
Cheer Up Satyam, all this euphoria may still come crashing down, and Modi may just be a Media Ozymandias.
http://qz.com/209279/why-narendra-modi-may-not-become-indias-next-prime-minister/
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May 14, 2014 at 3:32 PM
whether Modi actually becomes PM or not, whether the BJP gets to one vote total or another I am fundamentally disturbed by the conditions in which such a result is even possible! So while I’d rather not have Modi win I wouldn’t necessarily be celebrating all the way if this happened (which of course seems very unlikely). But the other thing here is that I don’t know how many of his supporters will react if he for some reason did not become PM. When you have absolute certainty about these things and when the result is something else the road to conspiracy and paranoia is wide open. Then it’s about how someone or something has denied one victory. So I actually have a certain degree of nervousness about this scenario as well. But where I completely agree with the piece (and some others like it) is that in a parliamentary system quirky things sometimes happen and the media has played along with the ‘Modi is inevitable’ narrative. It’s also true that much of the BJP old guard which has been completely sidelined by Modi is really hope for a win but not an overwhelming one.
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May 14, 2014 at 3:34 PM
Vishal Dadlani (of the Vishal Shekhar duo) had this wonderful tweet where he said we have to choose between a moron and a murderer this time. Bold on his part since no one else from Bollywood says anything remotely as provocative.
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May 16, 2014 at 1:15 AM
daldani is member of aap and immediately got the reaction in bhu varanasi where student welcomed him with chappals
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May 13, 2014 at 2:13 PM
The writing is on the wall.
Modi is going to be in. The people have spoken and hope their decision will be respected.
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May 13, 2014 at 10:30 PM
Indian Elections = Game of Thrones
http://qz.com/209137
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May 14, 2014 at 3:43 PM
When Satyam sir has to quote an asshole like Vishal Daldani to make his points, toh samjho Modi has arrived !!
wasiey this shows that a Gujju can go to any extent to get a Visa to the U.S.
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May 14, 2014 at 3:44 PM
“this” ( in the above comment ) = Modi becoming the PM, and add LOL !!
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May 14, 2014 at 3:51 PM
Satyam your comments are full of contradictions and frustrations.
the people have spoken, ab Modi ko ek chance do, can’t be worse than MMS…..
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May 14, 2014 at 3:57 PM
yes I am frustrated because in that choice between the moron and the murderer I prefer the former! On contradictions I thought a Manmohan Desai fan would be sophisticated enough to appreciate these!
Then again what true Desai or Salim-Javed or masala fan ends up with Modi?! I am very serious. Now that is a real contradiction!
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May 14, 2014 at 4:01 PM
ha ha, Salim Khan already loves Modi !! Modi has taken the revenge in the most democratic and non violent way , so Desai would have loved him too, however commies always liked the naxals violent way !!
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May 14, 2014 at 4:10 PM
yes but Salim Khan claims it’s a very personal relationship that has nothing to do with politics. Meanwhile Javed Akhtar hates him.
As for Desai there could not be a more ‘un-Modi’ figure of popular culture than him!
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May 14, 2014 at 4:13 PM
because all of Javed Akhtar’s love is reserved for a fellow liberal Tej(a)paal ..LOL
and he is RS MP from Congress !! Duhhhh !!
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May 14, 2014 at 4:26 PM
The irony Rocky is this — when it comes to Hindi cinema you are every bit the liberal that Akhtar is (this is different from being an academic or media ‘leftie’). I’d say the same for your tastes in popular culture in general. When it comes to politics it’s a different matter. There’s a contradiction here but I have always thought (if you allow the presumption) that your Hindi cinema tastes are closer to your core than your professed ideological leanings. And how does one build a bridge from one to the other? Precisely by accepting the Hindutva terms of the debate and confusing a militant political ideology with a much longer, much varied and infinitely richer ‘Hindu’ tradition. This is the old fascist trick people fall for. ‘Who’s for Germany’? Certainly not anyone ‘in’ Germany! But of course the question always is: how is Germany to be defined? Herein lies the trick. The fascist outfit erases all ‘tradition’ at the precise moment at which it claims to speak for tradition. To repeat once more the Dev example notice how Bachchan is the normative Hindu here who does his poojas and so forth while Om Puri is the militant Hindutva-type who does nothing of the sort. Bachchan is the Congress kind of voter there or the Desai fan or what have you whereas Om Puri is the classic Modi type. So you can certainly choose what side you wish to belong to. I am quite happy to be on Bachchan’s whether it’s about Dev or life offscreen! Of course the other point of ‘no compromise’ for me is the question of defining who or what a ‘Hindu’ is. I see myself as defending an extraordinary tradition in all its manifestations over millennia (of course the term ‘Hindu’ is debatable but that’s another matter) from this kind of fascist depredation. Here I don’t even see this as debatable. It is simply a question of facts. Precisely because a certain notion of being ‘Hindu’ is far too valuable and certain dear to my heart that I can never confuse it with the repulsive stuff Hindutva has brought forth on it. As I’ve said before today the ‘Hindu’ in the normative bourgeois sense has to be defended more than ever. It is the Bachchan figure of Dev who is sandwiched between a rock and a hard place. On the one hand the secular folks who distrust any mention of religion and on the other the Hindutva crowd that has no use for this sort of ‘moderate’ version. In many ways this is also the struggle globally in different religions. Islam is the obvious example but we see this in American Christianity too.
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May 14, 2014 at 4:35 PM
Thank Satyam for the kind words, however here is my response-
I like Modi precisely because of that – he has completely sidelined people like Ashok Snghal and Tagodias and has only concentrated on the development of Gujrat.
Not a single riot has happened during his rule. He is the first politician to win WITHOUT appeasing any one particular caste/ religion or state.
why is it necessary that to show your inclusiveness ( I will not use the word sickular) , everyone has to wear a topi?
He called for the army the day the riots broke, congress ruled states did not send in the army, but fault is his ?? come on !!
Now I am not naïve to deny that the there would have been some soft approach at that time , but it’s not as if he gave orders to go and kill the Muslims !!!
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May 14, 2014 at 4:42 PM
“Not a single riot has happened during his rule”
LOL, this is a rather bad joke!
On the rest a lot of the Gujarat development thing is mired in mythology. There was that recent Outlook link I put up which compared the performance of many states in terms of economic development but also looking at other indices and the picture that emerged was very different from the Modi myth. What he has however done successfully is the equivalent of the ‘India Shining’ program or the Bollywood multiplex equivalent where progress equals shining highways in Ahmedabad or whatever and the key classes that vote for him then don’t care about the rest. Ramachandra Guha in a talk some months ago said that if you looked at all the numbers in the most comprehensive ways the three best run states in India were (in no order) TN, Kerala, Himachal. I could reproduce that Outlook link which had all those factoids on Gujarat but you wouldn’t accept that source anyway so I might as well not waste my energy! But I’m afraid like many you are subscribing to the Modi mythology. Which doesn’t of course mean that it’s all myth. But this idea that there’s no one like him in India is quite ridiculous. Much as Gujarat was in any case on a certain trajectory with or without him.
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May 14, 2014 at 4:47 PM
what I really resent is the appeasement of minorities and making fun of everything related to Hindus by the liberals like Outlook and Guhas.
This constant unglee I think has boomeranged on them.
I know that a lot of Modi supporters will be disappointed once they realize that he is going to not listen to the Looney elements. I hope his development and progress record will more than make up for that,
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May 14, 2014 at 3:51 PM
Well, I am in two minds. Would like to see how Modi will rule the country and what difference will he make.
I dont want to see a weak UPA 3 being blackmailed by mamata, pawar etc.
Third front will be a disaster.
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May 14, 2014 at 3:53 PM
your two minds and state does NOT matter now, jinko mind banana tha , bana liya !!
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May 14, 2014 at 3:56 PM
As if it would have mattered before!
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May 14, 2014 at 3:58 PM
yes it would have, every vote counts..
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May 14, 2014 at 3:58 PM
oddly one never worships these ‘minds’ as much when they’re made up for the other side!
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May 14, 2014 at 4:04 PM
was talking about making up yor mind to take a side, whatever side…..don’t need to worship , but yes respect it.
as Modi said in a very Salim Khan Dialogue way- Main topi naheen pehnoonga, lekin Topi uchalney waley ko chodoonga bhee nahin !!
what is wrong in that ????????
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May 14, 2014 at 4:05 PM
Who writes those dialogues for modi? Salim khan?
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May 14, 2014 at 4:11 PM
Don’t know about that, but the rumor is that the phrase “Maut ka Saudagar” was written by Javed Akhtar for Sonia Ben…
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May 14, 2014 at 4:14 PM
Don’t know anything about that phrase but you might have missed Akhtar’s pronouncements (tons of them) on the BJP and Modi.
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May 14, 2014 at 4:11 PM
what made you think my mind wasn’t made up?! Analyzing a situation comprehensively doesn’t mean I have doubts about whether I want Modi in power or not!
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May 14, 2014 at 4:15 PM
Satyam ???? itna shock mein ho kya ??
I responded to Sanjana’s comment of her not being able to make her up her mind !!
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May 14, 2014 at 4:30 PM
oops, sorry, thought you were responding to me!
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May 14, 2014 at 3:52 PM
NYKavi- kahan kahn sey dhoond key laaatey ho yeh item posts !!!
the limit of wishful thinking ……
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May 14, 2014 at 3:57 PM
Re.- I am fundamentally disturbed by the conditions in which such a result is even possible.
Don’t blame you, when even Chanakyas like Nitish Kumars also could not predict this ,
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May 14, 2014 at 4:10 PM
Ab Modi ko bina proof key liberals ney Murdere announce kar diya, that when the Supreme Court of India has certified his innocence .
But commies and a. holes like kejriwal/ Dadlani hae never cared for the truth …
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May 14, 2014 at 4:21 PM
http://liveblogs.indiatimes.com/Legalairs/why-modi-would-rather-recall-anjaiah-than-trilokpuri/
The supreme court and Sit certificates dont tell the whole story whether they are 1984 riots or gujarat riots.
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May 14, 2014 at 4:25 PM
but what about malnutrition in Gujrat Sanjana ?????
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May 14, 2014 at 4:55 PM
and while on Guha …read Sanjay Baru’s book – how the King of Liberals N. Ram changed his tune in the columns of the Hindu…..since he is a card carrying member of the Commie party !!
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May 14, 2014 at 6:05 PM
In the la la land of liberals
Gujarat progress and prosperity is a myth
Modi will have gas chambers for minorities
Manmohan Singh was a great PM
CORRUPT,CLUELESS Comgress is better than any alternative
Supporting Modi makes one look like an intellectual lightweight
Truth is inconvinient. Lets stick to our
Fantasies where Modi is a big bad wolf
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May 14, 2014 at 7:09 PM
http://www.outlookindia.com/article.aspx?289889
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May 14, 2014 at 6:31 PM
I’m no modi fan or hater..(haven’t been following this @ all)
But let’s give the guy some credit
& In a country where every second politician is supposed to have a criminal record. Why are people crying (w)horse over modis ‘sin’ repeatedly as if the others are all innocent virgins…
And where are all those anti modi voices hiding now?
Are they still doing election propaganda??
Come out n smell the koffee!
Modi is poised to be the next pm of your country –elected democratically –accept n deal with it
Ps: I’m no modi supporter (infact I don’t support any political party)-actually I don’t believe in ‘democracies’ lol
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May 14, 2014 at 6:48 PM
The ineptitude of the Congress was displayed in the series of self-goals they scored in this election.
They cried hoarse while downplaying the Guj model, but could not convince anyone. Simple fact is that UP/Bihar sends thousands of migrant laborers to Guj, and these people go back home with true stories of Guj shining. All the spin and #s thrown by Cong etc could not hide the fact. No one claims that Ahmedabad is Shanghai, but it is way better than Lucknow/Patna. That relative comparison is all that people need to believe.
They cried hoarse about Modi’s child-marriage, especially Diggi. Result: wiping off of egg when Diggi’s own child-marriage (ie extra-marital affair with a woman who is younger than his two elder daughters) gets revealed!!
They cried hoarse about Snoopgate. Result: the woman in question petitioned Supreme Court for privacy, AND NCP/NC bullied them to withdraw the case.
They cried hoarse about his caste, claiming that he got his own caste included into the OBC list after he became CM. Result: The facts stated that a Cong CM, in 1994, had included Modh-Ghanchi caste in OBC list.
So yes, a party led by a moron did display moronicity. A party led by a murderer did go in for the kill at every step of the way.
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May 14, 2014 at 6:54 PM
And a party led by a Bhagoda (ie Kejriwal) kept running around the nation in circles, wasting tons of media time, money, resources, etc all in a vain attempt to unseat the Moron-Murderer. AAP may set a record for max # of seat deposits lost in an election.
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May 14, 2014 at 8:41 PM
Missing oldgold here.
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May 14, 2014 at 11:22 PM
If Modi becomes the PM, will the trains run on time ? No
Will poverty be eradicated ? No
Will women be safer ? No
So what can we be certain that Modi will achieve, if he becomes tthe PM. Well, most certainly harassment of minorities will increase.
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May 15, 2014 at 7:59 AM
Let’s give modi a chance, you won’t know for sure until he becomes PM.
My only fear is if Gujarat is the model that he will use, then the answer is NO to all of your question above as well as the gap will widen between hindu/muslim.
Just because there’s no riots inpast 10 years in gujrat doesn’t mean hinu/muslim are holding hands and getting along well. it just means modi has ensured hindus won’t do anything and muslims will not do anything knowing what they went thru during godhra riots.
Think of Isreal/Palestine, there’s no true riots there but we all know what the situation is. Gujarat has been heading in that direction for past 10 to 15 years including employment, housing, etc…
For all I know, the other states could be far worse but since i’m not from that state, i don’t know the ground situation.
I’m sure there won’t be any riots if modi is the pm because he has to clear his image thru out the world.
Just to clear up on your 3 questions above, you can’t blame modi or any pm for it. Indian people has to change. The famous dialogue from Gangaajal, Jaise log, waise government…
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May 15, 2014 at 9:05 AM
Z
Unfortunately such neglect produces unplanned for & undesired consequences. For examples, for years & decades there had been a lot of resentment that minoritieS (Capital S), are being “left behind”. This resentment produced an unintended consequence, The Naxalites/Maoist Movement. Now tell me who is “winning” ? Is the country better off or worse ?
If the Gujarat model is applied to India, all we will get is a Madison Avenue produced PR video clip of fake progress. In reality the country will crawl towards anarchy. If Modi wins, then that will be a tipping point in the favor of the Maoist. India will not gain but most definitely enrollment for the Maoist Movement will increase.
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May 15, 2014 at 3:17 AM
Such a great moment seeing tragic frustrated public meltdown of ‘Libtards’ and Sickulars… LOL….
What gives them burns and intense heat is “Modi winning on his own terms” and all their efforts to demonize, vilify him by Lutyens club for last 12 years failed…
As I say and seen, so called libtards are most extreme fundamentalist and exhibit ‘Extreme intolerance’
When A.hole Vishal dadlani is quoted to make a point, know one lost the war as well as battle…
This was most awaited moment to see them crying 🙂
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May 15, 2014 at 8:05 AM
well said Bliss…read this unbelievable dishonesty by libertards
http://www.firstpost.com/politics/opposing-modi4pm-why-are-left-intellectuals-against-democracy-1525053.html
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May 15, 2014 at 9:38 AM
As I predicted, the leftists/liberals/appeasers etc etc are already going paranoid with illogical doomsday scenarios.
Who says that Muslims in Gujarat have not progressed? Just last month, I was at a IT unit in Ahmedabad, which had more than 15% Muslim programmers, proudly working side by side with people from other religions. It was a sight to see, 300 programmers, in all types of attires: girls in jeans, shalwars or sarees. Guys in western formal/casual, or even kurtas, and the Muslims proudly wearing their skullcaps. Now this is in Ahmedabad, and these were educated folks making competitive salaries.
People who have never been to Gujarat cast such false and silly aspersions, almost like the Tea Party Birthers. One should not speculate without having seen the commercial activities there. All these armchair fear-mongers have not traveled on the roads there, lived without fear, seen girls travelling alone at night without fear. People of Gujarat are not stupid to vote for Modi 3 times in a row. The guy delivered. But the naysayers will forever hoist the yoke of 2002 on his shoulders.
None of it matters anyway, this guy is going to deliver for India, and all the naysayers will be scurrying around once again in 5 yrs, trying to find reasons to bring him down. They will never remove their hatred, even if the guy converts India to a developed country. He is autocratic, ego maniacal, and hellbent on creating a positive legacy. He will achieve it, just wait and watch.
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May 15, 2014 at 9:48 AM
https://news.vice.com/article/narendra-modis-shame-muslim-survivors-of-the-gujarat-riots-are-still-suffering
http://in.reuters.com/article/2014/05/14/modi-muslims-hindu-division-election-idINKBN0DU00L20140514
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May 15, 2014 at 10:40 AM
Once again, selective cut-paste pictures. I would like to know if there is any place in India which is a utopia for any community, just not Muslims. Every community has rich and poor. The poor uneducated Indians are all living in hellish conditions, not just Muslims.
The plight of the riot-hit Muslims of Gujarat is not any less than the plight of the Kashmiri Pandits in refugee camps. So why does anyone not highlight that? It is not less than the plight of every wave of refugees that made their way into India after partition. But everyone worked hard, and came out of it.
Secluded living neightbourhoods? Dont tell me that Congress rules states do not have the same issues. Mumbai is the biggest example, where selective housing takes place. So why is Reuters only pointing to Gujarat?
I mean seriously, any discussion has to be fair and balanced. These articles do not point out anything that is already not prevalent in other parts of India.
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May 15, 2014 at 12:16 PM
The thing is that ‘ideology’ can often push one into a kind of blindness where the commitment matters more than anything else. Or put differently all ethical questions are sacrificed to this commitment. I am a great Obama supporter. This doesn’t mean I think that Drones don’t kill anyone. Nor do I justify these actions by suggesting that Bush was worse or whatever. Now I was never naive enough to believe that an American president no matter how ‘kind’ wasn’t also the leader of an empire (more or less) and had to engage in certain kinds of actions. But whatever the realistic picture here might be it shouldn’t stop even an Obama supporter from raising some of these questions. In the same vein my support for Obama isn’t unconditional. I could conceive of things which would make me turn away from him completely.
All over the world and at different points in history there have been extraordinary acts of violence in which minorities or even pluralities were targeted based on religion or ethnicity or class or whatever. The entire 20th century (just to restrict oneself to the recent past) offers awful testimony to all this. And the extremes have happened on both sides of the political divide. But whether it’s the Turkish massacre of Armenians a century ago, the Nazi camps or even more recently the awful violence in Argentina in the 70s or Indonesia in the 60s, whether it’s the genocidal actions of the Pakistan army in the East, the plight of Kashmiri pandits, on and and on, in each case and in every corner of the globe where such actions have taken place my sympathy for the victims is exactly the same and I have always spoken about these instances in the most comprehensive ways imaginable. Because it is to my mind the greatest obscenity in the world to bargain over who the greater victims are or to enter into this calculus where one recognizes victims only to the extent that some other victims are so recognized elsewhere. An equal obscenity is the kind of ideological commitment that forces one to pretend not to see the obvious. In just about any of these instances of violence who did what is hardly a mystery. But in each case those who don’t like the truth offer exactly these sorts of excuses — conspiracy theories (how everyone is against them), the lack of evidence theory (no one knows what really happened), the self-defense (‘they’ did it first or ‘they’ did worse). Every such crime in more than a century has been defended using all of these tactics. One could change the words and the same statements could easily be valid for all these situations. So no I am not confused about what happened to Kashmiri Pandits and who did it, nor am I confused about what happened in East pakistan, nor Argentina in the 70s, nor Rwanda, nor in ’84 Delhi, nor in the 2002 Gujarat of Narendra Modi. The butchers might be Muslims or Hindus or Christians or whatever, one ethnic group or another, one class or another, one caste or another, the victims similarly might belong to one or more of these groups. My response is still the same: I don’t feel the need to negotiate these things. Because it is bad faith (and perhaps a bad conscience) to play this game. I am willing to put it as bluntly as this. Differently still ‘naiveté’ is not an excuse. I fully know that people who have such ideological commitments don’t really appreciate what they’re committing themselves to. And furthermore they protect themselves from the truth by resorting to such excuses. But ‘naiveté’ once again is no defense. At some point one has to ask oneself this question: is one’s commitment to a political name greater than one’s commitment (presumably) to a sense of the moral or ethical that transcends any precise politics? This ultimately is the question. We can play games all day long, blame others, blame the media, the other side does the very same, not just in this situation but every other. Everyone has the same logic, the same excuses, the same means of evading responsibility. There’s nothing new in all of this.
The suggestions that are made by supporters of Modi regarding his role (or lack thereof) in 2002 are insulting to the intelligence besides being reprehensible in other ways. But these are the very same things that Pakistanis say about their role in the East, this is the very thing everyone says in such situations. There is never ‘clear evidence’, there are always conspiracies afoot, the victims are always somehow the original perpetrators, on and on. Over the last century or more there are tons of such instances and in every instance the excuses remain the same. And all of these folks consider their arguments to be ‘fair and balanced’. Because I have been among other things a student of these very dark history and the respective ideologies I unfortunately know rather too well what I’m talking about.
People might be targeted as Hindus or Muslims or Christians or what have you but they suffer only as ‘humans’. Those labels don’t give them any greater defense when they’re murdered or raped or tortured or brutalized in the most unimaginable ways. And it’s unfortunate that we forget precisely that ‘humanity’ in pursuit of these ideological commitments. Even if one Hindu family were attacked somewhere in Gujarat by a Muslim mob wishing to take some sort of revenge and even if that Hindu family were supportive of Modi I would still find the violence (the attack on them by the Muslim mob) completely unacceptable. This is not about being idealistic (though I am not afraid of being idealistic either). One’s commitment in these matters must be absolute or it is not worth anything.
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May 15, 2014 at 12:29 PM
I concur with you on all points. However, name one political setup in India today which is untarnished. Except perhaps for AAP. The choices are limited to murderous elements on all sides, and the voters have alternated their choice this time.
If and when AAP becomes mature enough to truly represent the nation, provided they also stay untarnished, maybe then people will vote for AAP en masse.
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May 15, 2014 at 12:41 PM
just because everyone is tarnished doesn’t mean everyone is tarnished in the very same way. Just as every politician is not equally corrupt every political party does not have equal blood on its hands. Since there aren’t ideal choices in life one has to choose (as far as I’m concerned) the more inclusive vision. Or perhaps opt for the third option or whatever. Even within the same party everyone is not the same. Again when we refuse to make these choices we over-generalize and say everyone is equally guilty. Which of course still begs the question ‘why did one choose one kind of guilty over another?’
Incidentally I am not at all a fan of Congress. And it’s not just today. I consider for instance Indira Gandhi’s impact to be quite disastrous in many ways. But it’s a question of the choice one has. If a political party goes after minorities almost as a platform position, whether these minorities are religious ones or ethnic ones or immigrants or what have you, I can never support such a party. They all have excuses as to why they’re getting tough on these groups and I reject all of them! Put differently I have never seen a situation where such attitudes had any serious relation to the facts. It is always about politics, not about facts on the ground. in any given situation. But then it could be that being an immigrant in the US I have a vested interest in believing that the Republicans don’t have facts on their side! Some of my friends here who are also in a similar situation perhaps have different assurances from the same!
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May 15, 2014 at 12:52 PM
and to be clear when I refer to the ‘facts’ I don’t mean larger economic or political debates but the empirical claims these parties make when targeting one minority or another. In this latter situation the facts are never on their side.
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May 15, 2014 at 12:41 PM
People who don’t want election duty should ask to be excused on religious ground themselves instead of someone pointing them that they could do something like this.
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May 15, 2014 at 12:44 PM
agreed.. of course I also think that God is a little more flexible than the believers imagine but that’s another matter!
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May 15, 2014 at 12:48 PM
HAHA..
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May 15, 2014 at 10:29 AM
Read it already 🙂
Modi wants Arun Shourie as Home minister So he was called month back to shift to delhi and month back Modi visted Shourie’s place in Lavaasa (Pune).
Ajit Doval front runner as NSA
Rumors floating ( as No one has access to Modi and media is clueless now) Metro man Sreedharan and Deepak Parikh may also find place
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May 15, 2014 at 11:00 AM
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May 16, 2014 at 1:13 AM
shredharan is iron man of delhi metro development , hope swamy and vk singh to get parliamentry birth
bjp sweeping all in delhi in the den of arvind kejriwal and very soon will form government here
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May 15, 2014 at 8:39 AM
Bliss
By the extension of your logic, if you have to make gross personal attacks on anyone who opposes your beliefs , then I think you are just winning in the sense that Charlie Sheen understands “winning”.
Let me give you one problem with a potential Modi win. If Modi wins then India becomes worse than Afghanistan. At least even in Afghanistan the Taliban is considered as an Outlaw Organization. On the other hand, in India it appears that the insane are about to take over the asylum.
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May 15, 2014 at 9:11 AM
Bunkum !!!!
There is no cure for speculations and delusions. Its saying If I only win thn its democracy otherwise its mayhem…
You can’t extend my logic as there is no logic in your said extension.
You are exhibiting same what I said in my earlier comment : Extreme fundamentalism and extreme intolerance.
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May 15, 2014 at 9:34 AM
Here is another problem. India will be the First Nation to elect a leader (PM), who wan banned from entering US.
Do we really want to be the first in this category ?
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May 15, 2014 at 9:42 AM
There is a current joke going around – 2014 election has proven one thing that a gujju can do anything to get US visa ..!!!
Modi Sir ….respecr !!!
Also someone should post that Dabangg 3 pic of Modi floating the net saying with a pistol in sallu mode –
swaagat nahin karoge hamara ? good one
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May 15, 2014 at 9:48 AM
Dabangg3
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May 15, 2014 at 9:50 AM
US ? Hahahahaha..
Which spreads ‘Red Carpet’ to most despicable despots and dictators…
How many civilians killed by US presidents for their own self interests across the globe?
Iran’s Shah, Saddam, Gulf dictators, Zia, Musharaff…
Such list is endless…
US will bend now… Keep watching it 😀
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May 15, 2014 at 9:54 AM
whether the US grants anyone a visa or not isn’t a valid criterion of any sort..
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May 15, 2014 at 10:00 AM
LMAO…..Ladies and Gentlemen – we have the “Sanjay Jha” here now……
Kuch bhee bolo/likho- angrezee mein……Intellectual Mafia ko sab sense lagega !!!
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May 15, 2014 at 9:12 AM
Progress is impossible without change, and those who cannot change their minds cannot change anything and in this spirit of change, Modi’s victory is definitely a welcome sign. Status quo would be totally unacceptable and let’s be honest; there was no suitable alternative to BJP/Modi. On the national level a Kejriwal is too small a fry to bring about this change and that too in such a short time. But he is the perfect antidote for Indian politics and his presence will always do well to India.
Just from business point of view, we should welcome Modi as India has failed to move to 2nd stage of development due to governmental inadequacies. Since the business brigade favors him a lot he should utilize their good will in doing something special and long lasting. Secondly there has to be simply an end to the dynastic rule and this is a welcome step anyway one looks at it. Too bad if Congress does not want to give a chance to anyone else within the party and its all about Gandhis. Rahul Gandhi was such a national shame and displayed his incompetency adequately to one and all. I know from certain quarters he is in Yankee/ westernized mode mostly and a bit into Coke too and politics is just thrust upon him. All doscos worldwide should be ashamed of such a product coming out of this institution and openly displaying amateurishness though we understand he was there for a short while only. At any level Priyanka would be a much grounded and real politician but her marriage to Vadhra and all that is all mystery……?? of course a violent history in the family is not easy to follow but then why not declutch from politics completely and give someone within the party a chance.
On Modi its time to’ walk the talk’ and most importantly how he will handle corruption
which is ailing the Indian economy and general mindset of the haves from the ’haves and have nots’ brigade . Yesterday there was a picture released of a close door meeting of top 4 in BJP sitiing on a sofa and there he was my pet hate the corrupt mother fcuker Nitin Gadkari… so don’t have much hope.
Unless Modi is strong on corruption things will remain same or get worse. He would really need to tend to UP/ Bihar belt immediately as he seems to have got the max support from them in this election. But this is also a section which gets easily aggrieved/ annoyed /disgruntled. This sections also houses the troublemakers in Mulayam, Mayawati, Laloo and now Nitish…in simple words if he acts tough on them, they will fcuk him royally…so amit shah has a lot on his hand….
On minorities, Modi should be a welcome sign and like the earlier BJP government he would be softer than normal and may try to court them….something which Vajpayee and Advani did but paid a price. From the majorities. Modi wave is mostly a anti muslim wave in India and that is a fact…
All in all interesting time but definitely a good change for Indian politics.
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May 15, 2014 at 10:02 AM
MS Dhoni- if I recall you were not in favor of Modi, so I really welcome and respect the above comment from you.
Sanjay Jhaas – kuch seekho !!
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May 15, 2014 at 11:04 AM
Rocky – I have always respected reasonable stance wherever stated. Like many I too am unhappy with the way things turned for worse in the last 2 years or so. I simply hope Modi is able to stem the rot though due to nation’s diversity it’s a tough call and it would need a master crafter to rule and win all.
I firmly believe until Mandal / Babri happened this ‘present generation’ would not be able to differentiate between one another and VP Singh singlehandedly took us to the dark ages. Somewhere I read patriots always talk of dying for their country, and never of killing for their country.
The most important thing I should like to be able to love my country and still love justice and that’s why I prefer Dhonisque kind of thoughts in real life.
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May 15, 2014 at 11:11 AM
Eavesdropping on an important phone call
Obama: Modiji, India ka visa milega?
Modi- Kyun ji, kya kaam hai?
Obama- Ji, Woh aap ka Visa dene aana tha!
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May 15, 2014 at 12:17 PM
Ha!
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May 15, 2014 at 5:19 PM
http://m.huffpost.com/us/entry/5319723
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May 15, 2014 at 6:12 PM
Very apt article for this discussion:
”
I don’t want to hear the same old secularism versus communalism diatribe not because I don’t want our country to be secular but because yes, without these diatribes our country is already secular (in fact it has remained the most secular country or region throughout millennia). And second, by continuously pandering to minority vote, our political parties have developed a mindset that you only need to offer empty promises and raise doomsday scenarios in order to come to power. Development doesn’t work. Progress doesn’t excite. It’s caste and religion. Minorities are under threat. Dalits are being marginalized and exploited.
I’m not saying minorities shouldn’t be protected and the rights of the Dalits shouldn’t be protected. But the justice system should work for everybody — not just for minorities and Dalits. If our justice system works, if our political system works, if our bureaucracy works, we don’t need affirmative action. We don’t need special status for minorities if development is inclusive and people are punished in a timely manner in case of communal bias.
You cannot constantly blame the majority Hindu community for historical wrongs its forefathers may or may not have committed on certain sections. Historical wrongs were committed against Hindus themselves so then why aren’t Muslims made to feel guilty about them (there, I just became an Islamophobe)? I’m not saying they should be, I’m just saying if the blame game needs to be perpetuated, why not create an equal playing field for every religion and every community?
This is the mentality that Modi opposes, and so do his supporters. These people get angry when they are made to feel apologetic about their majority status, about their festivals, about their rituals, about their gods and goddesses, about their patriotism and nationalism and about their “the nation first” approach. They’re fed up with the pervasive mediocrity in almost every field in the name of inclusion and tolerance. They want excellence. They want to compete with the world and when they talk about competition, they don’t mean competition with Sri Lanka, Pakistan, Bangladesh or even Taiwan. They mean competition with the USA, with the European Union, with Japan and with China.
“
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May 15, 2014 at 1:12 PM
IMO, chickens are being counted before being hatched. There just might be a nasty surprise for the Indian markets in here. They have become so overbought, a selloff might be in order. Nothing like some blown exit polls for a good seloff excuse.
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May 15, 2014 at 1:55 PM
Somewhere along these lines we have this write up too
Mukesh-Ambani-leads-billionaire-gains-on-Narendra-Modis lead
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May 15, 2014 at 11:34 PM
Rahul gandhi trailing, Smriti irani leads in Amethi….Woooohoo
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May 16, 2014 at 1:32 AM
best news to happened if smriti beats rahul gandhi …will be biggest upset
one of the best orator in indian political scenes currenltly and has the potential to replace sushwa swaraj though have to admit kumar vishwas is not bad and equally good in oratory skills
rahul gandhi is allready out of country …lets see if he wins in amethi or not
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May 15, 2014 at 11:36 PM
Shahi tharoor trails in Kerala…BJP leads in that seat of thiruvantpuram…..wooohooo
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May 16, 2014 at 12:31 AM
Arnab calls it for NDA. 272+ already!!
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May 16, 2014 at 12:53 AM
it is 300+. Kejriwal on the way to lose his deposit.
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May 16, 2014 at 1:21 AM
end of gandhis, nitish kumar and arvind kejriwal in terms of there political career
highest ever tally since 1977 barring 1984 when indira was killed and ironically was the year when bjp started with just 2 seats
16 may 1996 was when atal bihari vajpayee was sworn in as 10th prime minister and on 16th may another auspicious news in making
chetan bhagat in revolution 2020: change will begin with varanasi
amitabh bachchan some year back in original don ( which stamped him as numero uno with the song chora ganga kinare wala in reference to varanasi and in 2014 its namo with varanasi)
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May 16, 2014 at 4:31 AM
BJP with 69 seats in UP! Sweeps Guj, Raj, Delhi, MP, Maharahstra. Achieves majority 275+ seats on its own! First time since 1984!!
This kind of result could not have been achieved without huge participation from all castes and minorities. There is no other way this can be explained. All the Modi-haters need to take notice. An entire nation has given a solid mandate to Modi. They trust him, they believe him. Muslims have voted for Modi in UP-Bihar. BJP has won more than 50% of seats in areas with more than 30% of Muslim populations, where they never broke past 20% of the seats.
Congress probably ends with less than 55 seats (and perhaps does not even get leader of opposition status!!). The Gandhi family is finished. Modi has done it, he has made India into a Congress-free country. May 16, 2014 is our Second Independence, free from Nehru-Gandhi rule. Hope Rahul just packs his bags and migrates to Italy for good now.
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May 16, 2014 at 5:49 AM
We have to respect the wishes of the people.
But it is still extremely difficult to respect a person who has yet to show regret for the Gujarat riots.
There will be a new dawn in India, when a person will be free and equal regardless of race, religion, gender etc. Today is a dark hour, but they say it is the darkest just before dawn.
I think it is now upto BJP to save
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May 16, 2014 at 4:43 AM
Congress ka ho gaya antim-sanskaar
Ab ki Baar Modi-Sarkaar !!
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