Student of the Year trailers (updated)
thanks to Saurabh…
thanks to Saurabh..
extended…
thanks to TonyMontana..
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SATYAMSHOT 
August 2, 2012 at 10:44 AM
This seems to be more up Johar’s alley. He should never have moved away from this paradigm. Like it or not he seems much more ‘with it’ when he’s doing this stuff.
Of course this is the kind of production with which a director atones for past ‘sins’! when you have the Indian performance of KANK and MNIK you have to make up for them at some point! The film is par for the course for Johar, the new starcast isn’t for a guy obsessed with stars! This is his Rowdy Rathore moment or what that film was for Bhansali post-Saawariya and Guzaarish. of course that was a much more violent change for Bhansali though he didn’t have to direct it. Here Johar has to which is kind of interesting. One would think he could entrust this subject to one of the in-house directors. But clearly he has to direct this himself either to make it an absolutely sure thing and/or re-establish his personal credibility as a director.
But there’s another side here as well. Johar let’s say does not exactly top the list for SRK anymore. This is a brutal truth for the director. In the making for a while. SRK has long wanted reinvention and he has in any case never been in love with this genre (by his own admission). The unkindest cut here is SRK doing a film with Rohit Shetty! Who symbolizes everything Johar finds anathema! How the tide has turned!
Will say this though — Johar is half right. He has not been able to deliver the reinvention vehicle for SRK in the latter’s strength genre. At the same time the other stuff though it gets SRK a decent or better performance doesn’t exactly advance his brandname. This gets to a point I made yesterday:
[yes Rajesh Khanna had an excellent ’74 with Prem Nagar, Ajnabee, Roti, Aap ki Kasam. Chaila Babu came much later in ’77 and was a flop. I often like to quote Rajesh Khanna’s ’74 though because I doubt there’s another star in Bollywood history who was more or less dead even after having such a strong year. Partly the tide had turned against him, nothing else after ’74 really worked even though he tried all kinds of stuff. But it’s also important (also a point I always make) to not just look at a hit but also what the star gains out of it. So for example SRK in RNBDJ is not at all like SRK in KKHH or Salman in Dabanng. Just giving random examples here. Because in the latter two cases the films worked but the star was liked in them. He increased his brandname. In RNBDJ on the other hand the film was a hit but the star didn’t excite anyone. And stars when they’re past their prime can appear in ‘acceptable’ films, live off a base they’ve nurtured for years and make the film successful. It’s better than having a flop. But this phase doesn’t last forever because everyone knows what’s going on. So why didn’t many of Bombay’s top directors cast Rajesh Khanna despite his ’74 track record? Why didn’t Manmohan Desai do even a Chacha Bhatija or a Dharam Veer with him as one of his heroes even though he’d already done two films with him? Rajesh Khanna lost his looks very early. So it’s not surprising that the rest followed. But even with stars who are older and require reinvention the base keeps showing up for a while but it’s quite clear that the real excitement is produced elsewhere at the box office. And incidentally this ‘fading’ is also represented in box office terms. So even though Rajesh Khanna had multiple hits in ’74 not one of these was anywhere close to being a top 5 or in most cases even a top 10 hit. This from the man who used to dominate the box office at his peak. Similarly SRK is not able to get to those biggest numbers no matter what he does. Great hype can bridge the distance upto a point. The initial remains with you for a while because obviously you’ve cultivated a base for years but that’s an illusion. The idea that because there’s an initial the right film would still be a big hit. Because that ‘right’ film never quite comes along and the hit is never among the biggest of the age.]
I cannot imagine Johar to have been a fan of even RNBDJ and I’d agree! Again this isn’t about my personal dislike of the genre or this brand of cinema. Purely talking strategy here.
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August 2, 2012 at 11:13 AM
some pertinent points here but do you really think Johar might have his Rowdy Rathore type moment with SOTY? There are youth who might turn up for this one but I doubt this one turn up some big numbers (the absence of a starcast might restrict its total) given the general viewers’ fading interest with mushy cinema.
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August 2, 2012 at 11:15 AM
I don’t think that anyone is going to go watch this- I wouldn’t be surprised if this went the Always Kabhi Kabhi way- except this looks like it was even more expensive to make.
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August 2, 2012 at 11:41 AM
I’d expect a very successful film here..
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August 2, 2012 at 1:42 PM
I second that – it is directed by KJo right? – 100 cr is on
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August 2, 2012 at 11:47 AM
It wont go the Always Kabhi Kabhi way for sure.. Johar would make sure of that. expect controversies and item numbers and promotions of a different nature and the new stars all over the news channels and internet giving interviews just before its release
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August 2, 2012 at 11:51 AM
Johar also made EMAET which was a poor show despite starring Kareena and Imran and being a lot less silly that SOTY looks to be- I don’t think that he can make his candyfloss films work anymore.
As for his Rowdy Rathore moment- I would have thought that Agneepath was the perfect parallel.
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August 2, 2012 at 11:57 AM
I dont think Karan involved himself in EMAET as much as he does in his own directorials. Those sort of films come n go in his camp. just compare the worldwide grosses of a KANK/MNIK with those of EMAET / IHLS.
Having said that, this again seems to be targeted more at an NRI audience.
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August 2, 2012 at 11:59 AM
But KANK had SRK + Rani + Abhishek + Preity and MNIK was the reunion of SRK and Kajol- SOTY has 3 new faces. Not to mention that both KANK and MNIK geenrated a lot of controversy because of their subjects- a high school movie is too cliched/ stale/ safe to attract any kind of controversy.
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August 2, 2012 at 12:05 PM
its too early to say that SOTY wont do well..
Keeping his inadequacies as a filmmaker aside, I think he’s a smart businessman; at least smart enough to recover costs and manipulate viewers into watching his film. If SRK can do that with Ra. One, why not Johar with his own film?
I think his not taking a big star in this film was a smart decision w.r.t costs incurred in its making (me might have utilized those surplus crores in giving the film a glossier look).
Btw what would be interesting to know is the cost of the film
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August 2, 2012 at 12:27 PM
Based on this first trailer I’m with Ami here- think it will not work at the BO. The main reason being Karan is behind the curve as far as the aspiration sweepstakes- the main USP of this type of moveis- are concerned. The cardinal sin of a wannabe movie is being cheesy, a direct result of not being upto date with the in vogue “wannabeness”, and unfortunately Karan’s audience has moved much ahead. Actually I foresee this movie being ridiculed by his target audience. Just like Subhash Ghai trying desperately to fit himself in the age of Karan Johar in the late 90s, I see Karan Johar doing the same here in the age of Farhan/Zoya Akhtar. It wasn’t Lagaan or the advent of “meaningful cinema” or even the comeback of masala that did him in, nope it was DCH that did him in- it was mortal, he just became irrelevant.
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August 2, 2012 at 12:29 PM
Great points Matrix!
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August 2, 2012 at 12:41 PM
Also- I think that Farhan/ Zoya truly believe in the aesthethics of their universe and are convicted of it’s coolth- thats what sets their films so much more succesful than the Lond Paris New York/ Teri Meri Kahani/ Cocktail wannabes- this was true of Karan when he made a KKHH or even a K3G- he knew that he was the most talked about, aspirational filmmaker on the block and genuinely loved the world he had created.
But today it’s evident from his interviews that he has lost conviction in his brand of glamour and that is visible in this trailer as well- who else but the most insecure filmmaker would state that his filmic world was the most prestigious and ‘angrezi’ and not merely ‘normal’- why is he not confident that this should evident from the visuals and dialouges in his trailer?
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August 2, 2012 at 1:01 PM
Ami- whatever issues I’d with Cocktail’s coolth, it was with the zeitgeist even if superficially. What we see here in SOTY is “retro”. I feel sorry for Karan, didn’t think he’d fallen so behind the times.
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August 2, 2012 at 1:01 PM
“BTW- Saurabh I think that the Dehradun reference was meant to indicate Doon School!”- Yeah, Ami. since the trailer came out i have been getting calls from so many school friends-most of them are abusing kjo(some want to file cases against him)-i am simply stunned.kjo didn’t need to stoop down to this level where he shows school in this kind of manner which is completely different what the school actually is.Ami i think u are smart enough to know that this school is everything what Doon isn’t.btw doon isn’t co-ed
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August 2, 2012 at 1:22 PM
And though i have been through this debate before on the blog I will say this one last time- I can’t speak for any other school but being an ex-student of Doon, i can surely that Doon is NOT an ‘Angrez/Angrezi’ school (whatever the fuck it means). I am just hoping that guys who wouldn’t come up with links trying to prove me wrong or say that i am wrong abt my own school. That’s it from my side on the ‘school’. Do not want to be called ‘jingoistic’ next
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August 2, 2012 at 8:10 PM
Saurabh I was joking- I know that Doon is nothing like the school shown here. 🙂
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August 2, 2012 at 12:35 PM
^A v good analytical post by satyam dwelling on the issues facing kjo today-
Though satyams readings of the inner psychodynamics in romcoms is below par sown what (relative to his other strengths): analysis and box office remind his forte…
Unlike most, I consider kjo a sensible shrewd guy who has been an ‘achiever’ of sorts
Just like his ‘mate’ Srks acting career, Kjos directorial career seems to he at crossroads
(as a producer, he is just too good /flexible/opportunistic to beat most of the crowd!)
But Bollywood without a viable kjo (even of hate some of his films ) will lose something
Hope kjo captures his confidence and imagination ..
Ps: sowmwhat missing the likes of saif, Diana, deepika and nargis f
Iw the world of imtiaz /adjania 🙂
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August 2, 2012 at 1:10 PM
One can find Fellini in Johar before one can the “inner psychodynamics” of rom-coms!
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August 2, 2012 at 1:12 PM
^ haha
Hopefully satyam : u will learn 1 day…
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August 2, 2012 at 1:17 PM
Not planning on regressing anytime soon so I’m afraid the lesson will have to wait..
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August 2, 2012 at 1:16 PM
LOL
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August 2, 2012 at 1:22 PM
Ha
Regression or Progression is all relative …
Ps: the ‘area under curve’ more pertinent than the ‘direction’ of motion 😉
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August 2, 2012 at 1:32 PM
I was bad at Maths / Physics but good at ‘biology’
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August 2, 2012 at 1:30 PM
You can learn as much “inner psychodynamics” from a romcom like Cocktail or SOTY as you can learn about the sun from a burning candle: it’s hot, it gives light and it’s yellow…
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August 2, 2012 at 10:52 AM
Not to be harsh here, and I forget who she’s related to, but if the actress here is supposed to be “the hot girl” she’s been severely miscast.
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August 2, 2012 at 12:19 PM
ROFL…. she’s aint a feather on poo from K3G…
ps- k3g is a guilty pleasure for me… i admit
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August 2, 2012 at 12:24 PM
Poor girl- it isn’t that she looks bad but she just seems so utterly uncomfortable and clueless while pouting and posturing in a ‘sexy’ way. I read somewhere that she was only 17 when they started filming!
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August 3, 2012 at 11:11 PM
She is Mahesh Bhatt’s second daughter, Aliyah – with whom? I don’t know – and I think neither does she…
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August 2, 2012 at 11:22 AM
While the new wave of bollywood directors are blending more realism into cinema, KJo does not want to wake up from his ‘ice-candy’ world where everything looks clinically picture perfect. He had done this even in a MNIK. Given the subject of this movie, you don’t need to guess.
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August 2, 2012 at 12:14 PM
In Voiceover just to shut up people who crib that it set in US/UK, it is a premiere instituition in Dehradoon which is “Angrez”..take that Saurabh and Rocky 😉
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August 2, 2012 at 1:34 PM
LOL Sir. Can’t speak abt the ‘premier’ bit but this Kjo one is certainly not the school I went to
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August 2, 2012 at 1:55 PM
at the risk of annoying you further Saurabh I have to reproduce these older links!
I’d add two things here. I don’t know why you treat ‘Anglicized’ as a cuss word here. But leaving this aside this might not be the school you went to but that hardly argues against it’s colonial history!
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August 2, 2012 at 5:23 PM
>But leaving this aside this might not be the school you went to but that hardly argues against it’s colonial history!
Believe me. Most newly established schools, especially boarding ones are running on the traditions and ways started in these ‘colonial’ schools.
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October 8, 2012 at 12:13 PM
Just saw this comment…Not annoyed in the least Satyam. But the school was never supposed to be a ‘colonial school’, it was always a ‘public school’. Of course an Englishman (Arthur Foot) became it’s 1st Headmaster but when the foundation of the school was being laid down by Satish Ranjan Das (the brother of C. R. Das as u must be aware) as an ‘answer’ to the ‘colonial schools’ in the West and so- Yes at a point of time it did have the sons of the so-called ‘brown sahibs’ but that was very early- and all this still does not make it a colonial school.
Actually when these writers call the school an Anglicized one, they often use it as a cuss word- the way the used to lampoon Rajiv Gandhi by calling him one of the ‘baba-logs’ (the way it’s said in Hindi).
All I am saying Satyam is that there is a slight chance that being an ex-student, I might know ‘some’ stuff abt the the school which u or the journalists might not be aware of.
Aside, loved ur twitter profile pic- that song ties in so well with the Bambai Shaher Ki song from Piya ka Ghar- loved the Bombay of those comedies (though i never liked Anil dhawan)
And while I was watching Bluffmaster the other day, I felt how rohan Sippy’s Bombay was at once both the Desai as well the Mukherjee’s version of the city- the double-decker sequences and characters like Chandru (Nana) belong to Desai’s world but when the more laid-back scenes the like ones between Roy and Dittu and between Roy and Soniya have resemblance toward’s mukherjee’s relatively ‘silent’ comedies. Also the score here was fantastic- the receation of “Tadbeer Se Bigdi Hui” song from baazi was a subtle tribute to the underbelly of Bombay in Guru Dutt’s film- probably through this song Sippy somewhere wanted to say that the film is not as ‘light’ as it seems
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October 8, 2012 at 1:36 PM
Saurabh.. this is from the school’s own website:
http://www.doonschool.com/the-school-and-campus/origins-a-history
“Satish Ranjan Das, the founder of The Doon School, was one of pre-Independence India’s eminent barristers and a member of the Executive Council of the Viceroy of India.
His mission was to constitute India’s first public school in an era when ‘Chief’s Colleges’ were the ultimate school experience. The Doon School was meant to provide the youth of the country with an opportunity to get an all-round education based on an adaptation of the English public school system on India’s tradition-enriched soil. ”
Now doesn’t this sound more than a little bit like a Brown sahib establishing a school ‘for Indians’ but very much modeled on the colonizer’s education model?!
I’m not even sure what the debate is about. There were lots of educational and administrative (and so on) institutions created in India that were often ostensibly ‘for Indians’ but they were pioneered by figures who were already the model citizens for the British. Over time these institutions evolved but the colonial history in each case is not even debatable. It’s like the Bombay Gymkhana having colonial roots. Things of course change with time but the vestiges remain. Now by the time you entered the school the ‘politics’ of the institution might have changed greatly and so forth but that ‘is’ the school’s history and was so long after Independence. Yes sometimes such institutions were meant to be ‘responses’ to the colonizer but they were nonetheless created in the latter’s image.
“All I am saying Satyam is that there is a slight chance that being an ex-student, I might know ‘some’ stuff abt the the school which u or the journalists might not be aware of.”
With all due respect that doesn’t follow at all. One can know the present of a school better if one has been a student but one doesn’t automatically know all the history better unless one has studied it in which case one is still like anyone else who takes a similar interest. everyone who goes to Oxford or cambridge or Harvard or wherever is not necessarily the best judge of the institution’s history.
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October 8, 2012 at 1:37 PM
great comment on BM..
the twitter pic though is from Manzil..
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October 11, 2012 at 11:23 AM
Satyam, could you check your mail please
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August 2, 2012 at 12:17 PM
I suspect this will do well enough.
Johar is not a complete idiot.
The girl is just meh…The boys look okay.
Nothing fresh or ground breaking here and more for kids.
The setting is so unrealistic. Only in K Jo films…..
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August 2, 2012 at 12:27 PM
Kjos crisis of confidence =SOTD
Haven’t seen this promo -didn’t wanna see it/didn’t need to!
A)The bigger question –
Why has kjo taken in his hands to direct this one
Y couldnt he get one of his toyboys to direct this-the oneshe has been ‘breeding’ under the auspices of dharma?
B) the ‘honest confession’
Admire kjo for openly admitting in a show recently with adjania/imtiaz how ‘clueless’ he was about love stories now
C)The irony
It’s like a Sajid khan being clueless about crass comedies,
A chris gayle getting scared of a full toss !!!
A kjo trembling on his home turf
D) the ‘motive’
What does he have to gain here
The ego boost of guiding ‘virgin newcomers’ to box office glory (aided by low costs due to paying them zilch !)
E) the ‘bright idea’
Unless kjo has come up with a sureshot bright idea and a USP here, the battle isn’t as easy here
F) life without SRK
SRK hasn’t been called the ‘king'(righty or wrongly) fr nothing.
Life without Srk brings some harsh realities
And EMET etc( without seeing can say was a better film than some) proved it
G)the ‘shock’ of KANK trending
Nobody will agree with me that after Kkhh (preinterval part) which was Kjos peak,
The best film of kjo was kank
He really tried to turn a new leaf but the trending still gives him nightmares
H) satyams post above
Agree with him about the inner compulsions o kjo here-well analysed
I) romcom affinity-a mirage
Just when a cocktail comes along, thought maybe I’ve warmed up this genre finally
But only managing London Paris new York partly yesterday and not even feeling like watching this promo brigs me back to
‘the good and bad film’-no genre ..
And lastly
Bring saif, deepika and Diana -may still view em again..
But this crap -naaah!!
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August 2, 2012 at 12:27 PM
Satyam;’ I think you are totally off the mark here. This is a dud from the wird go and is not going to enthuse anyone. This is a format that has passed its sale by date. Remember what happened to Pyrar Mein Kabhie Kabhie or whatever? This will be better. But marginally so. ( Rajen : Johar is not a complete idiot. Do you think SRK is one? Or why do you think he made that Roshan Abbas fllm? )
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August 2, 2012 at 12:31 PM
I, Matrix : t wasn’t Lagaan or the advent of “meaningful cinema” or even the comeback of masala that did him in, nope it was DCH that did him in- it was mortal, he just became irrelevant.
You are bang on there.
Even a Cocktail has shown what his KANK could have been , should have been.
He has missed the bus many times over. He has turned Subhash Ghai mighty prematurely.
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August 2, 2012 at 12:44 PM
Utkal uncle : jus to let u know
As discussed, tried watching ‘London Paris new York’ as recommended by you
Couldnt go past some portions..
I COULD act/direct in a much better film on the same subject –“London Paris new York’ effortlessly 🙂
What a pity lol
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August 2, 2012 at 1:05 PM
kjo is good at making such kind of movies but the problem is this stuff is overdated now. So i think this movie will find it hard make any mark at boxoffice.
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August 2, 2012 at 1:17 PM
I think Johar is going in for a Disney kind of deal here. Playing to a younger demographic (I know it’s hard to beat the Cocktail one!), getting part of the family audience as part of the deal, the latter will end up liking it because it won’t trouble them or alienate them like the other multiplex rom-coms. I’d be surprised if this didn’t work. seems ‘retro’ by this point but I works for those demographics. and again Johar seems much more energized here than with the other stuff he’s tried.
This was true in a different way for ZNMD too (made this point at the time). The trailers were quite boring but this ‘tamer’ film was again a good way of splitting the difference. The family audiences that did show up liked it. Which is why it remained so stable despite a fairly good but not great start. If you make the edgier kind of rom-com (which is to say totally geared toward an under 30 or so demographic) you’re not likely to get anyone else in which case the film has to hit it out of the park. Otherwise it collapses beyond a point as we’ve seen with Cocktail.
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August 2, 2012 at 1:22 PM
Agree here, Satyam
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August 2, 2012 at 1:24 PM
@alex adams
a sincere request, i hope u dont take offence,
I like to read your comments and thoughts, and you have a great humour imo, but sometimes i feel they are pain to read, as there is lack of space in between, and uneven breaking of lines….
so if possible friend just try to adjust that extra bit of space between paragraphs, may be its my bad… as my eyes may be weak…
I hope you dont take it wrongly.
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August 2, 2012 at 1:29 PM
“I like to read your comments and thoughts, and you have a great humour imo” thanx Rooney
Typos and lack of syntax is a habit, a ‘style’ -I would like to (wrongly) believe!
Not that I do know what ‘spell check’ etc is ..
I restrict that for my ‘official’ documents etc
But yes: will keep it in mind (if there is readership )
🙂
Ps-thanx for liking the comments/’humour’…
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August 2, 2012 at 1:39 PM
no no i am not referring to spellings, they are bad even on my side….
it is just i cant finish ur comments becoz of spacing problem.
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August 2, 2012 at 1:46 PM
Alex, though sometimes u tend to overdo it, I too love ur humour- as ‘dry’ as as a 5th day Wankhede dustbowl . (and also the way u put in an ‘Enjoy’ or ‘Good Night’ at the end of a comment- truly unique)
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August 2, 2012 at 1:35 PM
Alex, there’s a two-hero deal for you here too.. Possibly you can assume the role of this Dhawan guy.. you can pick n choose who Siddharth and Aliya Bhatt could be 😛
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August 2, 2012 at 1:44 PM
Who ARE these people tony haha?
Siddharth? Aliya?
Maybe if I ever get through the promo
And the ‘heroine’ looks a prepubertal teenager
Probably a minor
That takes away some ‘perks’ while ‘shooting’ immediately 🙂
Ps-but may catch the promo later today..and will opine
Ps-Rooney: look, what a brilliant ‘spacing’
Not bad from phone (1handed)..
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August 2, 2012 at 2:10 PM
You and your strategically placed scare quotes…LOL
The last word in your comment even without the scare quote is too much info…..
Now a friendly suggestion. To keep your ‘perks’ intact think about shooting in ‘appropriate’ country. 🙂 This wiki page might be helpful (or should I say ‘handy’)…haha
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ages_of_consent_in_Europe
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August 2, 2012 at 2:13 PM
Haha matrix
Now u know y most of my spoofs are shot in road trips around ‘sunny’ Spain 🙂
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August 2, 2012 at 1:48 PM
I know Amy has been making ‘fun’ of this film overtly but actually has been overexcited since the promos …
I also sense that Amy is damn keen on playing Aliya : but as usual :
I don’t cast without any ‘auditions’ aka ‘screen tests’
🙂
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August 2, 2012 at 1:58 PM
Ami is too mature to play Aliya..
you must look for a fresher aka ‘new member’ of the blog
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August 2, 2012 at 2:03 PM
“Ami is too mature to play Aliya..
you must look for a fresher aka ‘new member’ of the blog”
Hmmm good point tony
Would keep that in mind
And we shall look out for ‘new talent’-
A fresh face ideally-
But shouldn’t be a minor -due to some reasons..
Ps-there were some new names floating around yesterday-dont rememwber
Sophy Chaudhuri?!
Or sheetal malhar?!
Anyhow- me and u have a good kjo-esque sense of drawing up these projects..
Keep it up tOny:thanx for reminding me
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August 2, 2012 at 2:05 PM
Tony:
Your cheque: your share from the cocktail (spoof)
profits will reach u shortly ..
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August 2, 2012 at 2:16 PM
I hope its a handsome amount. the idea was mine and I also sacrificed the role of a lifetime for you.. lol
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August 2, 2012 at 2:20 PM
Yes tony- plus not all of it is in cash..enjoy
Btw tony:
Hope u have not made Amy angry..
Now I read her comments on SOTD-she was really damn keen on this one(though she will never admit)
No wonder: she has suddenly stopped commenting..
Ps: if not in this one, I shall cast her in a ‘bigger’ upcoming
project…surely
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August 2, 2012 at 2:23 PM
Ohh. i didnt mean to do so
Sorry Ami.. that wasnt my intention. it was just a friendly joke dats all.
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August 2, 2012 at 8:06 PM
LOL! Not angry in the least Tony! 😛
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August 2, 2012 at 8:08 PM
Ok lemme wipe away those tears
Now what were u saying amy…
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August 2, 2012 at 2:28 PM
Don’t worry tOny:
There are loads of projects…
Spoofs of Srk -yrf starrer being one example-looking forward to playing Srks role there! ( horror !!)
Though the female casting there is another ‘sensitive issue’
Your expert opinion needed here since I have to ‘lock the dates’
In advance
(being a ‘big’ film)
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August 2, 2012 at 2:32 PM
yes you will be in news then because that will be a big-budget production for you where you play a mature guy with two mature women.
so go for it ad probably you can avoid SOTY and leave it for a new male member of the blog (the courteous soul probably who greets Satyam every time with a ‘Satyam ji’ and keeps thanking him for uploading trailers of Bol Bachchan, Son of Sardar etc
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August 2, 2012 at 2:38 PM
Alex Adams: I genuinelyu like LPNY. Very charming. But not enought to mkae me write on it. So I will quotea review which lkind of echoes my feelings about the film:
http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/entertainment/movie-reviews/hindi/London-Paris-New-York/movie-review/12096528.cms
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August 2, 2012 at 2:39 PM
Hmm think his name is xhobdo ..
A nice cute bwoy-we Will look out for a new ‘girl’ for him …
Ps/ the girl here is a ‘minor’, a nice guy like xhobdo will be apt.
Ps2: I’ve already signed anjali for a film deal ( before she becomes a ‘star’)
🙂
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August 2, 2012 at 2:42 PM
And thisone is from Aniruddh Guha: again pretty much with my line of experience.
http://www.dnaindia.com/entertainment/review_aniruddha-guha-reviews-london-paris-new-york_1657592
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August 2, 2012 at 2:45 PM
And here is Rajeev Masand:’
http://ibnlive.in.com/news/masand-london-paris-new-york-an-enjoyable-film/235591-47-84.html
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August 2, 2012 at 3:48 PM
sorry guys, had to delete very many comments.. too much social networking that had buried everything else.
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August 2, 2012 at 3:50 PM
The role of Jodha Bai played in the film Mughal e Aazam…..is way better than the roles played by Pritviraj,Dilip and Madhubala put together.Though no one remembers her.
Just look at her face and body language as she essays that role…..she has the milk of motherhood flowing in her eyes.I think this is womanhood.
Can any woman of this generation essay that role? Sadly,our culture …..full of feminist stinking garbage….and talk of the rights of independent women…. has lost that connection from a deep spring inside woman….which women of older generation had.
Durga Khote as Jodha Bai in Mughal e Aazam is divine.
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August 2, 2012 at 4:14 PM
Anjali, it was quite a sad day wasn’t it when humans stopped living in caves?
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August 2, 2012 at 4:16 PM
the amusing thing is but for feminism or some such progressive equivalent you wouldn’t even be allowed to appear on a blog like this one and register your views!
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August 2, 2012 at 6:32 PM
That is a ‘human’ right . Man or woman – one should be allowed to write on blogs 😀
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August 2, 2012 at 6:38 PM
^Good point Oldgold
There seems a confusion between ‘human rights’ , ‘equality’ , education with an all-encompassing ‘feminism’
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August 2, 2012 at 7:47 PM
no confusion at all.. human rights includes the emancipation of women from fixed traditional roles and/or severely circumscribed ones, it also includes checking discrimination on grounds of sexual preferences and so on, it equally includes lack of racial discrimination, it includes an immigration policy where desis merrily move to England (!).. very many things. Because once you raise certain principles a lot of things follow. You can’t say I’m all for one kind of human right but not for another. What happens though is that we tend to take our own relative ’emancipation’ for granted and then criticize that of others not realizing that these different kinds of emancipation are cut from the same cloth. Now whether political correctness can be taken to an extreme or not (it often is) is a different debate. But it seems to me that a lot of times people who complain about the excesses of political correctness really want no political correctness at all! Even here one must follow the consequences of this logic. In a world in which men could engage with women using a certain kind of sexual banter which would today be classified as sexual harassment was also a world where racial and ethnic slurs could freely be used against many including immigrants. What if someone were to object to this kind of political correctness using exactly the kind of statement you have referring to feminism?!
I don’t have a problem with any position whether I disagree with it or not but in many of these debates people don’t take the elementary step of thinking through their positions.
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August 2, 2012 at 8:09 PM
Great comment Satyam.
It takes a special talent for a person of color living in the US, UK or some other western country to bemoan political correctness without irony. I’m reminded of a quote I read somewhere…”The ‘trauma’ of not being able to tell a sexist joke infront of my female colleagues is worth the price to pay for not being beaten down on my way home or my property being vandalized on account of how I look”.
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August 2, 2012 at 8:11 PM
well said Matrix!
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August 2, 2012 at 6:50 PM
hello oldgold
welcome back.have been missing u 🙂
hope u r safe and sound
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August 2, 2012 at 7:37 PM
Oldgold, what if a woman isn’t considered ‘fully’ human? 🙂
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August 3, 2012 at 7:30 AM
What *is* fully human, matrix?
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August 2, 2012 at 7:41 PM
but it’s not a ‘human’ right the way these things were traditionally defined.. many things were just ‘male’ rights!
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August 2, 2012 at 8:14 PM
Even ‘males’ didn’t have the ‘right’ to ‘chat on blogs’ a decade or more ago..
Certian things/facilities weren’t available..
Haha
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August 3, 2012 at 7:33 AM
>but it’s not a ‘human’ right the way these things were traditionally defined.. many things were just ‘male’ rights!
Agreed. So those were *male* rights NOT human rights. I’m also thinking of Children rights which get crushed in men/women rights.
*sigh* it’s all very complicated. I yearn for a simple life 😦
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August 2, 2012 at 5:03 PM
Oh that was Jodha–I thought that was the dumpy maid there in the background. My eyes were on Madhubala of course — angst and unfairness trumping over milky motherhood. That said Madhubala dies so maybe you’re right Jodha did have a better role.
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August 2, 2012 at 5:21 PM
Hmm sophy: nice witty comment
Though one shouldn’t disrespect ‘milky motherhood’..imo
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August 2, 2012 at 4:12 PM
Alright honestly speaking here…I’m a fan of KJo for making KKHH, KKKG, and MNIK [not KANK…that movie was not up my alley], but, this looks like a pure dud. It reminds me of Jo Jeeta Wohi Sikandar, but, almost an overly dramatic version of it. I don’t think any of the new actors seem comfortable. The only one who does seem comfortable with his role is the veteran Rishi Kapoor. But I dunno, if handled well, there may be something in this movie. Maybe!
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August 2, 2012 at 5:20 PM
Hehehe!
What’s this? 😀
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August 2, 2012 at 5:23 PM
^oldgold : nice to see u back…
How art thou buddy –
-any new stuff u watched when u were away (other than watching the action on this blog)… 🙂
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August 2, 2012 at 5:58 PM
@ satyam
Man still lives in caves,though the shape and size of the caves have changed.it has become more secure and safe.man is still an animal though he is a rational animal. But we have to understand where this rationality is taking us?
Man can only stop being an animal when he becomes a machine and this is where human rationality and progress with its thrust on security is taking us from the dawn of civilization……to a state of perfect security and safety…to a machinehood.
To explain with an example: virtue remains a virtue only as long as there is vice.the very definition of virtue is to be in spite of vice….. that there is a possibility of going wrong…..but even then not to go wrong is to be virtuous. suppose there was no possibility of going wrong/vice…..then virtue will disappear. man will become an automaton/machine.
Similarly life is precious and has value only as long as there is danger to it. all the life affirming qualities in a civilization disappears as the danger to life disappears(as there remains no need for them.)the whole thrust of human logic and civilization has been to make the caves more n more safer…life more and more secure and this is causing erosion of the preciousness of life.the culmination point will reach when man will start replacing his body parts for machine parts in the lust of becoming more secure….immortal. surely man will become immortal but he will become dead at the same time. life affirming qualities need danger to survive.
This is where the role of woman comes in.women have not been allowed traditionally to participate in this race for progress….their intelligence has not been taxed as much as that of a man. that is the reason why a woman has more intuition.her real role is to delay and regress this mad race of rationality of man to achieve perfect safety in the form of machinehood.that is why often women have been characterized by writers of yore as irrational.she gives succor to the rationality infected fevered brain of man when he returns home from his exploits.she makes man more rooted and human.
With the advent of feminism women are forced to become the imitators/competitors of man and that causes the civilization to speed forward at breakneck speed to the goal of final machinehood.
This is the reason why a woman of today appears more logical/rational/mechanical whereas as jodha bai in mughal e aazam appeard more emotional/irrational/human.and when we see this we sigh! Because man needs to be human…no matter how rational/logical he maybe….but he needs the succor.
The life affirming qualities are eroding and things are becoming more and more mechanized. we are becoming less and less HUMAN deep down. That is the real reason why a woman should play the traditional gender role…to make humanity remain more human.this is what women have been doing down the centuries by not participating in the domain of men.she has been delaying this madness….she has been giving humanity to the man….she has been the balancing agent.
The causes given by the advocates of feminism(suppression/exploitation) are on surface….the real reason is what I have explained. World war 1 happened becoz of the imperialistic compulsions and rivalries…but the surface cause of the death of the emperor Ferdinand. All the arguments of feminism is on the surface.the reality is than rationality in man is eager to make a machine out of him.and only women can regress and delay this suicidal process.
Aldous Huxley and a variety of other philosophers like Marcuse…who have questioned modernity and feminism have dealt with this theme very deeply.
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August 2, 2012 at 6:33 PM
there is a need to look deeply with a critical eye…..feminism is a perversion.
i am not saying there should not be progress but it should be balanced…so that man retains his humanity and does not becomes a mechanical prototype of the machine man to become in the future……..bereft of all those human impulses which we see in the character of jodha bai in mughal e aazam and dont see in the women of modern times. modernity should happen naturally….with harmony……and in a balanced way.only women can play that role of the balancer…as she has been doing since time immemorial.the biological difference/subservient to the species status(pregnancy)…are all proofs that nature wants this balance between man and woman(as two separates…… definitely)
the dilution of this in the name of progress or because of progress is going to deform this progress…….which it is doing rite now.
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August 2, 2012 at 7:48 PM
“i am not saying there should not be progress but it should be balanced”
who decides what that balance is?
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August 3, 2012 at 4:35 AM
Who has decided ‘So called Traditional’ Role of woman from time immemorial, not woman but by Man and man has exploited that in every aspect…..
Science says that because of man’s complete domination of woman in every aspect of life, woman is now programmed/ wired to think that w/o man their can be no emancipation( and are dependent on man) and it will take ages to undo this…
In Psychology it’s easy to learn new thing, but difficult to unlearn and learn new thing…
Your statement that feminism is perversion reminds me an old survey where 75% of woman felt happy and said its right if their husbands beat/abuse them… They say its their right 🙂
Jodha bhai and woman of those era ( previous era) were caged animal and no matter how milky or silky 🙂
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August 2, 2012 at 7:39 PM
You still haven’t responded to my central point though. If things hadn’t changed (as in your imagined paradise) you wouldn’t be on your keyboard right now putting up these comments. You wouldn’t even have been allowed to get the education (in most cases) that then enabled you to read everything that you have! So just let me know specifically where you would like women’s emancipation to be stopped. At what stage of history? And I can then pick it up from there.
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August 2, 2012 at 10:03 PM
You really want to pick this up? Lol…
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August 4, 2012 at 2:52 PM
really enjoyed everyone’s thought here even utkal with whom i don’t agree on anything
btw even jodhabhai framing has changed with time
for salman rushdie her portrayl start with that of of manipulator and kamsutra godess and similarly feminism has different perception according to various others philosphers
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August 2, 2012 at 6:07 PM
^Now that’s quite an original counterpoint from the default ‘political correctness’ one keeps hearing…
While one may/may not agree with this and other counterpoints, atleast when it is sensibly put forward, it needs an unbiased reading rather than a knee-jerk sniding remark–
All in the name of ‘progress’
Ps-‘feminism’ lately seems to be used here for ‘equality, ‘education’, ‘equal opportunities’ ie a solution for all ills…
Hail feminism… Lol
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August 2, 2012 at 7:48 PM
Rail and complain as you may, I suspect women aren’t that eager to be pushed back to the kitchen again…haha
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August 2, 2012 at 8:06 PM
As usual: I can debate for both arguments..
Just to help out anjal:
There is a difference between ability, independence and self assured but quiet confidence
And
Default Negativism, suspicion & aggression towards men
Whilst the former signifies the ‘modern woman’
The latter description smells of militant feminism..
An element of the latter may well be needed but not beyond a point..
As for history and where to stop/start, they are hypothetical questions which won’t change te current discourse either ways
Good nite folks 🙂
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August 3, 2012 at 3:47 AM
Yeh kya hua? Satyam deleted the comments. why satyam why? i think we were still discussing cinema 😦
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August 3, 2012 at 3:59 AM
Coming back to the topic I liked MNIK and enjoyed Kuch Kuch Hota Hai a lot. Liked the way Johar infused masala elements and balanced it with a movie that gave the feeling of chewing upon delicious candy while it lasted but the taste of which hardly lingers after one’s through with it. Still, the film was pretty good even on a repeat watch. K3G was watchable but still disappointing. KANK is easily his worst film. Found it okay on first watch but havent been able to go past a few scenes on repeat viewings.
MNIK I thought was good on the whole. The highlight was of course SRK. But talking about SOTY again, i dont really know what to look forward to. No matter how alluring KJO makes the background to be, it is after all deja vu thats at work here. Thats the problem with this genre..
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August 3, 2012 at 5:13 PM
Satyam : ” the amusing thing is but for feminism or some such progressive equivalent you wouldn’t even be allowed to appear on a blog like this one and register your views!”
Absolutely true. But it is also equally true that without patriarchal societies there wont have been computes to write or read blogs on.
So the constant tug of war between the male and female principles, in a healthy give and take spirit, is thew only way to move forward.
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August 3, 2012 at 5:28 PM
“But it is also equally true that without patriarchal societies there wont have been computes to write or read blogs on. ”
with women in charge we might have had a lot of this progress much earlier!
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August 3, 2012 at 5:29 PM
^ Satyam : hope u are also not a ‘woman’ 🙂
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August 3, 2012 at 5:22 PM
Right said fred..
Btw utkal uncle -didn’t really share the same liking for LPNY
Btw a question was out cocktail u have been skirting…
The scene where Diana panty and saif leave after an (eventful ) nite, she turns back to leave …
Did she change her mind or was it premeditated ? 😉
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August 3, 2012 at 5:35 PM
” Did she change her mind or was it premeditated ?” Can’t answer that.
But one bit that caught my attention this time was that during the dance on the beach, as Gautam was trying to leave Meera and move towards Veronica, Veronica kept on pushing him back, saying ” Maa ke paas jaana hai. Woh akeli hai. ” and again” Tum Meera ke sath raho” . What was she thinking?
Was she applying the principle : “If you love somebody let him go. If he is yours he will come back to you.”
Or she knew what was coming and was preparing herself for it? Also trying to soak in as much Kavita Kapoor as she could?
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August 3, 2012 at 5:49 PM
Satyam : ” with women in charge we might have had a lot of this progress much earlier!”
Not at all. Women are not bothered with inventing, or exploring. They are so connected to the 3 elements and the creation that they don’t have the need. men with their fear of death and insecurities feel the need to prove themselves.
Try showing me some evidence of women’s inventiveness in the few societies that were supposed to have been matriarchal. Even today in the West with much improved gender equality , how many top software developers are women?
The Parkriti and Purush combo is what creates and nurtures. We need both.
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August 3, 2012 at 10:20 PM
I don’t understand what you are saying Utkal- if men stop oppressing women then they will lose their inventive powers? That computers an only be invented in societies where women are treated like second-class citizens?
If this is true why is that the more gender-equal West has a far higher number of inventions and patents per capita that deeply patriarchal societies like India or Saudi Arabia? Even if we were to accept your logic that men are inventors and women are not (which I most certainly do not!) that is still no excuse for a patriarchal society that oppresses and tortures women!
And saying that women are not inventive because they haven’t made as many inventions as men is as stupid as saying Indians are not business savvy because we are not as economically developed as the West! Nurture is just as important as nature and when you have one gender that has been systematically oppressed for milleniums and has to operate in work environments that are heavily male-dominated and often hostile to women then obviously it will take more than just a few generations of liberation to catch up! I hope you realize that the extremely flawed logic you use to argue male superiority in the spheres of inventiveness is the very same logi that racists and white supremists use to argue for people from less developed countries (like India!) being uncivilized and incapable.
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August 4, 2012 at 11:28 AM
I do believe that women can do wonderful things and things are definitely changing slowly but surely ( more women at the top in the corporate world) but sadly when it comes to inventions and/or founding new companies women are still sorely lacking. I can’t really explain the reason for this. So for example, Gini Rometty, Indra Nooyi, and Mulcahy are CEOs of IBM, Pepsi and Xerox respectively, it’s just a case of hard work and rising within the company. Let’s look at some major companies founded over the past decade and their founders:
Amazon: Jeff Bezos
Facebook: Mark Zuckerberg
Google: Larry Page/Sergio Brin
Twitter: Jack Dorsey
LinkedIn: Reid Hoffman
eBay: Pierre Omidayer
PayPal: Peter Theil
Apple: Jobs and Wozniak
Microsoft: Gates
Oracle: Larry Elllison
As one can see these are some of the major companies in tech. So the real question is why are women less entrepreneurial than men? Is it because of what Ami said; more nurture than nature, in that case than the next couple of decades might look different. More girls are encouraged to join math and science now than before and make careers out of it. Will the next important companies to be founded be by women? We will have to see. Right now the jury is out.
This is just an objective observation, not really my opinion.
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August 4, 2012 at 11:40 AM
that’s because there are lesser societal constraints to women venturing off on their own and creating this sort of enterprise.. whether at the family & friends level or in terms of the larger market you are less likely to be taken seriously or helped in an institutional sense. But if you can come up through the educational ranks and make your way in the world that’s a different deal though even here there’s absolutely no comparison between the number of women and men CEOs or COOs and so on. The same for politics.
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August 4, 2012 at 11:49 AM
Yup, a lot of lip service given to this issue but sadly the results are not the same.
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August 4, 2012 at 11:44 AM
I might add that it’s the same case in investing; all the majority of hedge funds and long only shops in equity investing have been either founded by men or have men as their chief investment officers. Actually the case is starker here than most fields perhaps even more than tech. Again I don’t know the reason. Perhaps investing being more testosterone driven as one is taking bigger risks than capital.
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August 4, 2012 at 11:57 AM
The ‘illusion’ of uniformity vs urge for equality!!
Wanted to stay away from this as of now-
But
Just by wearing corporate wear/corporate trousers: the basic gene set doesn’t/ shouldn’t change!!
Men & women are NOT the same..(equal they are)
Why can’t the ‘liberal/progressives’ not grasp this simple FACT designed by nature..
Equal they maybe, both have their own strengths & weaknesses but same–naaah !!
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August 4, 2012 at 12:17 PM
Instead of fighting over a FACT, it’s better than one embraces and accepts these ‘fender specific differences’
And use their individual strengths in the right places /’jobs’
That increases efficiency..!!
At the same time, of an individual does exhibit characteristics/’qualities’ that are traditionally ‘transgender’, he/she should be allowed to exhibit those fully (not talking about exhibitionism here!)
And finally
The positions of CEO/head honcho need more than ‘concepts of equality’–those that really can walk the talk are welcome to reach there ?indepwndent of their gender)-though many females (till now) have had issues there (of it changes-all the best!)
On a lighter note–
Hate even the thought of ‘male’ secretaries /interns !!
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August 4, 2012 at 12:28 PM
The problem is that ‘genes’ don’t provide any such information. This is just cultural prejudice that takes the guise of pseudo-science. Once upon a time very many things that women are doing successfully today were also considered not suitable fields or areas for women to venture into. The idea that there are ‘individual’ strengths to each gender is often a kind of code used to discriminate. I am not saying you’re consciously doing this but you’re buying in too easily into this kind of stuff.
And getting back to the Pranav example if women can be successful CEOs or successful politicians or successful scientific researchers or successful astronauts etc etc etc then at the end of the day we are only arguing about numbers. And this is where the whole institutional argument comes in. If it were not possible for women to do these things at all or at least not as well as men then we wouldn’t have had so many successful women in so many fields doing every bit as well as men. More women graduate from college each year in the US than men. How did that happen? Once upon a time it was dogmatically asserted that women just couldn’t handle certain kinds of education and so forth. This is sort of thing Austen was already satirizing more than two centuries ago where from her ‘feminist’ perspective a lot of the men appear less than grown ups if not ‘fools’. But again because those institutions were nonetheless in place and were very powerful Austen could understand a certain truth, write about it but not change her way of life in any radical sense.
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August 4, 2012 at 12:20 PM
Anytime you order any aspect of society over a long period of time whether it’s along gender lines or ethnic lines or caste lines or whatever, it takes a very long time to undo these even when the legal fiction suggests a level playing field. Because institutional changes are not easily undone. I would actually be surprised if I discovered parity along gender lines in the corporate world or investment houses or politics or what have you. Because this would argue against all historical experience. We were having a similar debate about caste not so long ago. What people inevitably focus on is the law (equal opportunity and so on) but what they forget to examine is the most ‘invisible’ effects or cultural institutionalization. Let’s take a quick example. Anyone can become president in the US according to the law but actually there is a whole invisible set of rules that cannot be easily flouted. We’ve had the first black president after more than two centuries. There has still not been a female president. And there has so far not been an atheist or even agnostic president. Again the law allows people in all of these categories to become president. But ‘society’ has a different take on this. The same society then expresses its preferences in various institutional ways. If women are paid 76c on the dollar even today (relative to men) this isn’t because people openly tell them they won’t be paid more. That age is in the past. But the same result is obtained through other institutional means. The prejudices that have been put in place across centuries if not longer and have been built into various institutions do not get altered overnight with the stroke of a pen on a legal document. The law in these cases is aspirational when it is put into place much more than being reflective of existing realities. It can get societies to a better place over time but this is very slow process and it is easy to think that work of progress complete when some headway is made. For example blacks in the US today live dramatically better lives overall than they lives in say the 60s. But this doesn’t mean this is the optimal state for them because that arc and dynamic of equality is very far from reaching anything close to completion. The well-known Marxist theorist David Harvey often makes this point with respect to global poverty and so on. He says that the subject is important and needs proper focus but what happens is that people in the ‘first world’ only think about poverty and so on and existing elsewhere while in many ways the inner cities of America (he used Baltimore as an example) have comparable poverty, education, crime etc rates to those in many regions of the ‘third world’.
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August 4, 2012 at 12:28 PM
Satyam: haven’t read that fully
But agree partly that changes take time
Bit some changes dont/won’t happen!!
But can anyone negate /deny ‘testosterone’
Or ‘estrogen’ or ‘progesterone’
Can Amy or anjali ‘with’ testosterone injections be th same ?? (just as an example-not to be taken literally)
No..
So unless/until that happens, true uniformity ( not equality) is a myth..
Ps: forget gals
Even people like kjo with testosterone won’t stay the same … 🙂
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August 4, 2012 at 12:33 PM
A very SINCERE advice to the MEN.
STOP forming these companies/corporates!!
It’s neither superior, nor intelligent/clever.
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August 4, 2012 at 12:36 PM
Alex- No one on this thread is arguing that men and women are exactly the same! Why reduce the whole debate of feminism vs.patriarchy to spmething as stupid as whether or not men and women are clones of each other? Ofcourse they are not! But then it’s not like all men are identical to each other or all women to each other as well!
What’s your point really? That women shouldn’t be allowed into the coporate world because they can give birth? That men should be allowed to subjugate and oppresss women because they do not have the ability to become pregnant?
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August 4, 2012 at 12:40 PM
“That women shouldn’t be allowed into the coporate world because they can give birth”
Hahah
U are taking to someone who has more female colleagues at work than males
And who genuinely believes (& ‘supports’) female equality 🙂
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August 4, 2012 at 1:04 PM
“A very SINCERE advice to the MEN.
STOP forming these companies/corporates!!”
Oldgold -that’s Sho cute 🙂
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August 4, 2012 at 1:08 PM
Oldgold : guess men should sit @ home , watch Srk films and make Rajesh khanna mannerisms 🙂
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August 4, 2012 at 1:23 PM
@alex
Spoken like a typical ‘superiority’ ridden male. To think that otherwise they would have to sit at home – WHICH THEY MIGHT JUST HAVE TO, as we get ruled more and more by these demonical entities.
The very fact that women don’t contribute in high positions in these shows there better sense and values.
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August 4, 2012 at 1:28 PM
A good reply Oldgold 😉
Btw do u ‘work’ ..just curious -suspect u are a nurse/doctor -right?
Btw i consider females ‘superior’ overall than males-the question is what aspect/specification is needed in a particular task..
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August 4, 2012 at 5:07 PM
Alex, do ‘you’ work?
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August 4, 2012 at 5:14 PM
Oldgold 😉
Ps: u didnt answer…
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August 4, 2012 at 5:17 PM
Old gold seems angry….
Ok: u are a housewife… Happy ? 🙂
Hehehe
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August 4, 2012 at 1:08 PM
Pranav- as you already said the jury is out on women in IT, Engineering and hard Science. I think with time things will change in these areas as well. For some years now in the US more women are graduating college than men, and more women join graduate school than men. There is already a significant presence of women in biological sciences.
IT, Engineering, Math, and Physics are areas still vastly dominated by men, not imho because of some mental aptitude advantage, but on account of these fields having a male ethos, a question of nurture not nature. (It may sound odd that theoretical physics in certain respects has one of the most macho, testosterone driven ethos when in popular imagination theoretical physicists are slightly effeminate geeks :)). With time as the number of women in these fields increase the culture will also change- it’s the early pioneers who face the maximum challenges, once a critical point is reached I expect a significant number of women entering these field. Still I don’t expect to see a lot of women mechanical engineers, petroleum engineers, or mining engineers. But this’ll be because of choice.
PS: The 2000 years of diasporic existence- often in hostile host societies- where one’s wisdom and wit were the only instrument for survival, has been cited as one of the reasons for the disproportionate presence of Jews in areas requiring high mental aptitude. The success of Jews in Finance has been similarly explained- in christian societies, Jews had a second class existence; they weren’t allowed to join the respectable gentile professions, so they were recruited in areas related to finance, a field normal christians wouldn’t join since charging interest was a sin! 🙂
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August 4, 2012 at 3:29 AM
well utkal sir u r a genius! absolutely brilliant point.
@ Utkal and satyam and amy
“But it is also equally true that without patriarchal societies there wont have been computes to write or read blogs on.”
This is absolutely true.the observation you have made is an intuitive truth,but there have a been a lot of theories advanced by psychoanalysts who have tried to explain what would have been the nature of progress and the form of society had women ruled the roost.
both the men and women have 46 chromosomes… that is…. 23 pairs each. 22 of 23 are just alike XX in both but the 23rd pair is different. women have again XX…but men have XY….those who have studied the Y chromosome have determined that Y chromosome is actually a chromosome of ABSENCE. so in reality men have one X less out of 46 chromosomes whereas as women have full 46 X chromosomes. this is the reason why the structure of a woman’s body is more symmetrical and in harmony….heavy down and narrow up(more in tune with the earth’s gravity).her body language and whole presence has more evenness…..while a man’s body is haphazard..almost inverted…his manner rash…more violent as if there is some absence in his personality(one X less)… and he wants to fill that absence somehow.
And that is the reason why he is so full of an angry ambition…… he wages wars……. and reaches to the moon……the whole patriarchal history is a testimony of this absence in man which creates the craving.The rapid technological advancement has been possible because of the wars men have waged all through the history.even the recent cold war was responsible for space ships and communication revolution.
A woman is more in tune of existence and balanced she is not a war mongerer..man is imbalanced and progress happens only because of imbalance……
go deep into man and go deep into woman….understand them deeply…and you will see that they need each other.society should be structured in a way that this mutual need between them is maintained.if u make both men and women equal ..give them equal rights and independence…practically they may not need each other.such an arrangement is not reflecting or is not in correspondence with the arrangement of nature.
sometimes rationality and its logic has to be questioned. a snake eating its own tail should logically speaking eat itself into oblivion….but that doesnt happens. logic has its limitations.try to understand the heartbeat of the existence……for that stop the drumbeats of rationality.
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August 4, 2012 at 3:46 AM
@utkal
Women are not bothered with inventing, or exploring. They are so connected to the 3 elements and the creation that they don’t have the need. men with their fear of death and insecurities feel the need to prove themselves.
Try showing me some evidence of women’s inventiveness in the few societies that were supposed to have been matriarchal. Even today in the West with much improved gender equality , how many top software developers are women?
The Parkriti and Purush combo is what creates and nurtures. We need both.
BANGGGGGGGG ONNNNN!
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August 4, 2012 at 8:18 AM
you guys have some pretty scary views. And it might begin with the utter lack of irony, specially in your case Anjali!
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August 4, 2012 at 12:19 PM
Anjali- I really don’t udnerstand you- on one thread you ask for career guidance and talk about studying law and chartered accountancy- on the other threads you declare that women are not cut out for a professional life and that allowing women to work will ruin society and obstruct progress- which one is it then? You cannot decry and demonize women who want careers while being one yourself!
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August 4, 2012 at 12:33 PM
^Amy :Lemme help out Anjali -since her answer has a lot of potential fe misinterpretation
She sounds a ‘clever cookie’ /’modern gal'(in a good way)
She probably knows how to eat her cake and have it too..
On a serious note: being a ‘non-feminist’, does NOT equal being a non career person..
A question of ‘balance’
Also
To lead a full professional life, a woman doesn’t have to shun her ‘feminity’ and the attendant ‘qualities’ that only a woman possesses–in the desperate urge to ‘equate’ with males’ some women acquire the same problems that they blame the males for !
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August 4, 2012 at 12:44 PM
With all due respect to Anjali her positions on this matter are hopelessly confused and self-contradictory. she takes all the ’emancipation’ that she has been the beneficiary of for granted and then proceeds to paint these dystopian pictures where the same emancipation is a symptom for everything that’s wrong!
Men and women are biologically different but from this basic fact a whole apparatus of cultural prejudice has been created which operates on the male side of the equation. So yes they’re different in certain ways but my response is: so what?! If they can be astronauts and CEOs and outnumber male graduates in Ivy schools and do as well as politicians and perform hugely well in all kinds of sports…. etc etc etc.. I’m not sure what the objection is all about? Where does this biological difference prevent them from doing just about everything? No one’s denying these distinctions but that says nothing about one’s ability to run Pepsi or serve as the PM of the world’s largest democracy!
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August 4, 2012 at 12:45 PM
And actually I’m afraid to have even talked about Anjali here because she will come back with this vision of a caveman paradise prostrate to Osho!
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August 4, 2012 at 12:45 PM
I never said that a woman needs to ‘shed her feminity’ in order to have her career! I’ve argued on other threads that it’s very unfair to discriminate against professional women who choose to retain their conventional feminity. Not taking women seriously unless they have typically male charecteristics is hardly ‘progessive’ since it indicates that the only way for women to progress is to ape men!
On the other hand Anjali has stated on this blog that she doesn’t think women can ‘have it all’ in terms of having both a career and a relationship and that she doesn’t even think women should have the right to vote(!) – forget a career!
But thank you for so gallantly helping me ‘understand’ what Anjali had to say- I fear that my feeble female intelligence could not have done so on it’s own. 😉
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August 4, 2012 at 12:47 PM
Of course the ‘feminine’ in woman is itself an abstraction, already defined in all sorts of cultural ways. So different societies at different points have decided what the ‘feminine’ was really about. Once upon a time it was not considered ‘feminine’ for women to be allowed to attend many elite colleges in the US. Cambridge admitted women after centuries. and so on in very many areas or fields.
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August 4, 2012 at 12:49 PM
Great point Satyam- not to mention that the definition of what is feminine varies greatly from one culture to another.
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August 4, 2012 at 12:56 PM
Folks-: spare anjali: she is just stating her pov-u may/may not agree..
Btw time for some ‘tips’ from the women/gals..
Btw Amy /anjali/oldgold :
What do u do about those female colleagues who think they can dress provocatively / look great/ out flirt others and ‘escape’ proper work–while I don’t mind all that but ..
In effect putting more ‘load’ on others/collleagues!!
And if u dare to point out the obvious , there is the risk of them getting ‘offended’ or ‘harrassed’
How to ‘tackle’ such ‘oversmart’ gals …
Take this as a serious question deserving proper ‘guidance’ 🙂
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August 4, 2012 at 1:01 PM
And pray don’t clutch on straws by debating definitions on ‘feminity’ etc
It is more than obvious what the idea is in this premise … Haha
Ps–who is saying females can’t/shouldn’t becum astronauts/CEOs
I’m all for it -infact don’t mind working ‘under’ a female boss (though certain criteria apply lol)
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August 4, 2012 at 3:01 PM
@ satyam and ami
well i am not indulging in any more debate..as i have already stated my position clearly in my posts…and utkal and alex have further explained about the balance which is needed in nature…..and alex particularly about the tendency of the feminists to become insular and bigoted..and blind to all opposite povs…
i will quote tagore:
“But if woman begins to believe that, though biologically her function is different from that of man, psychologically she is identical with him; if the human world in its mentality becomes exclusively male, then before long it will be reduced to utter inanity. For life finds its truth and beauty, not in any exaggeration of sameness, but in harmony.”
and this harmony is only possible if the women realize their essential role…which i have already explained in my posts above..innumerable times….i dont see the logic of repeating the same again.
i will only add that if this consumerist/capitalist culture endorsed feminism is not checked….the very notion of man and woman as sentient beings is going to suffer because in a hundred years or so…..HOME…..is going to become an obsolete term.it is already happening… the word Home is not evocative of the same sentiments to a city kid as it was to a village boy….its changing.the only thing which makes a house ..a home….is woman who is moulded/animated by a female principle(the thing utkal uncle talked about)…..since women r becoming the imitators/competitors of men…..the notion of motherness is losing connection from the deepest springs of her soul…she is becoming mechanical as i explained by the jodha bai example.
so…we must be ready for a society where children are not born into a home but an institution.obviously..the institution will be very effective…organized…impeccable…but will give him no love.
that is why i talked about the machinehood which is approaching.
i have to talk in these vague…abstract terms…because there is no other way to articulate this.u ppl r having myopic vision…looking at the concrete/immediate things…i m having an eagle view….not looking at things in isolation and making it a this vs that…but speaking about the common good of humanity and its posterity which can be achieved only by being natural and more human and maintaining the balance…and women have responsibility in that direction as they give birth and raise children and are the HOMEMAKERS.
And lastly repeated question marks by satyam and ami has been raised about my personal life….. my education and all that.I am here not to discuss my personal life….i would request you to desist from asking such questions….as i have never asked any personal question from anyone.
if u guys have to contest me….pls follow my arguments and rebut them….pls down stoop down to asking personal questions.
jane austen was born at a time in england when …england was acutely patriarchal…..still she had an education and a lot of other women did too.
my theories are general….and panoramic…..i am saying one has to take into mind the objections i raised…the nature of existence before fashioning a social structure……
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August 4, 2012 at 4:50 PM
“And lastly repeated question marks by satyam and ami has been raised about my personal life”
that’s utterly ridiculous. Did no such thing.
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August 4, 2012 at 5:25 PM
@ satyam
i was hinting at ur constant reminder of the irony factor. my birth and education at least in until i became 18 were not in my hands.from then on…because the whole society has been structured the way it is….for reasons of pure expediency i could not rebel literally.
that is because there is societal pressure.a woman without a job is looked down upon.so i have to fake.
tum tanha duniya se ladoge
bacho si baatein karte ho…….syndrome.
but i am against the whole system.even arundhati roy is against the principles of indian sovereignty( state sovereignty is the sacrosanct pillar of the constitution) when she talks about kashmir and marxists issues. even though arundhati enjoys the protection of that same state and follows the laws of the same INDIA whose sovereignty she finds exploitative.
every one has the right to his/her opinion and can vent it…just like arundhati does.
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August 4, 2012 at 5:38 PM
that’s hardly a personal remark. It references the inconsistency in your thinking. It has nothing to do with birth and so on and everything to do with your gender. At a different point in time most societies simply did not allow women to do many things. Ergo in such a society it isn’t even clear whether you would be allowed to read Rabelais! Because even in the West they felt that certain kinds of literature was just not appropriate for women. They also felt that women ought to spend 90% of their waking hours indoors. So on and so forth. I don’t quite see how one maintains such ‘tradition’ and nonetheless does everything else. And you are proving my point. You could not do certain things. In an older society you would not be able to many more things.
Anyway this is going round and round. I don’t want to extend this discussion. But you should take some time and think about the consequences of what you’re saying.
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August 4, 2012 at 3:00 PM
Ami, since when have u become so dumb that u r arguing against some of the most factually incorrect and ridiculous statements of Anjali (and her statement on chromosomes is completely cooked-up LOL- i have studies genetics for in 11 and 12 and then again in 1st yr MBBS so i do know a bit abt it)- But really I am surprised u are still involving urself in this arguement. Btw had Doon been anything like the school shown here, we atleast would have had a hot chick (Alia Bhatt)in our school 🙂
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August 5, 2012 at 12:59 AM
men have 45 x chromosomes and women have 46 x chromosomes…..men have one less x….do u contest the factual veracity of my assertion?… .this is the biological fact and i am not cooking up any story here.
the lack of one chromosome in man is the cause of a certain imbalance in his temperament which is the source of his ambition and possessive,violent nature…….this deduction has been done by psychoanalysts…who had a knowledge of human genes and who have pondered deep on the nature of man and woman and tried to explain this difference through genes.
I would like to clarify here that nothing i am saying is hawa mein.i am not so original to cook up theories so fast. but i see where the problem is.the problem is that i am explaining myself without the load of jargons…by using simple poetic substitutes for jargons which renders itself easy to comprehension to a layman.the same psychoanalytic theories on man woman gene difference….or on the arriving machinehood of man…..if i had done by using technical words and jargons perhaps they would have become very appealing to you.but because its easily understood it becomes pop. strange!
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August 5, 2012 at 5:29 AM
“men have 45 x chromosomes and women have 46 x chromosomes…..men have one less x….do u contest the factual veracity of my assertion”
Anjali: some good points there..
Anybody can get basic info on chromosomes nowadays
But what’s difficult is this sort of original analysis.
There maybe factual issues but hey…
U are not talking anything ‘blasphemous’ here and neither is this Khomeinis Iran !!
So go for it..
Anyhow, one is not talking about ‘nondysjunction’ or ‘missense’, forget about ‘Knudsens’ hypothesis here!
Not names dropping, but just mentioning that even those delving in the above can do well to see the other metaphorical perspective!!
Finally:
Anjali : inspite of some chronic ‘objections’, don’t think u need to ‘defend’ or be apologetic about your original views esp by explainsing your personal circumstances..
Negativity has no explanation
Keep it up and chillax…
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August 5, 2012 at 9:35 AM
Anjali i’m not questioning abt man having a Y chromosome and not another X. But as far as my little knowledge abt genetics goes this bit and even the rest of ur comment is bullcrap- “this is the reason why the structure of a woman’s body is more symmetrical and in harmony….heavy down andnarrow up(more in tune with the earth’s gravity).her body language and whole presencehas more evenness…..while a man’s body is haphazard..almost inverted…his manner rash…more violent”
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August 5, 2012 at 9:45 AM
Alex, assuming that ur ‘missense’ (btw i guess there is ‘nonsense’ too) point was addressed to me, first lemme thanks u for telling me abt these terms. Otherwise my knowledge abt this stuff is only limited to knowing abt people having Down’s or Cat-cry syndrome. Anyway u can carry on supporting each and every profound theory of Anjali since folks like me, Ami and Matrix are a bunch of weirdos with little sense in our heads, who are objecting her self-contradictory and utterly ridiculous views
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August 5, 2012 at 9:53 AM
And Anjali before u start crying foul, lemme make this clear that i have the highest of respect for ur comments esp on topics like poetry, psychology, kashyap’s cinema and so on. And i wish i had half as much as intellect u have but frankly speaking ur points here and somewhere else cannot be comprehended by me. Sorry for sounding harsh but this is what i honestly feel. In any case i think, apart from such topics, i can continue to learn a lot from u
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August 5, 2012 at 10:27 AM
“Otherwise my knowledge abt this stuff is only limited”
That’s a frank admission but so is the knowledge of most (including me) on this -limited 🙂
Don’t claim to be an expert
But a cursory search will tell one about some basic facts on this.
For eg u talk about ‘cri du chat’ -it’s due to ‘deletion’ apparently..
‘missense’ is probably different…
Not only us– the overall understanding of these fields is limited ..
There are more than hints of a correlation between chromosomal shape/size on body morphology
Due to the risks /ethical /safety concerns, these experiements can’t be done on humans but there is enough linkage on animals/other life forms
If u are interested, do spare some time to go through this for eg-
http://www.nature.com/hdy/journal/v91/n1/full/6800280a.html
Not knowing about these things is natural and not unusual..
But one should have an insight about that ‘lack of knowledge’ and the accompanying ‘humility’
Cheers
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August 5, 2012 at 10:32 AM
As for supporting ‘anjali’ —
I know enough about blogosphere to know that the person may not be an ‘anjali’, infact not even of the female gender or that age..(not saying it is there always!)
Won’t be surprised either ways … 🙂
The support is for that ‘idea’!
The person behind it is not that important (barring fun n games)
Besides-
I believe one should have enough self-conviction to support /say some thing not to ‘score points’ or make some ‘coterie happy’– u mention Amy and matrix here
Both of them are quite intelligent on their own and don’t need default ‘support’ lol
(though I indulge in that as well for fun n games)
But the mind should always be ‘open’ for fresh ideas..
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August 5, 2012 at 10:49 AM
I think your mind is rather more ‘open’ to ‘fresh ideas’ when they come from a certain gender..!
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August 5, 2012 at 10:50 AM
“Both of them are quite intelligent on their own and don’t need default ‘support’ lol”
It’s not like Anjali is an helpless idiot that you need to constantly police everybody who dares to disagree with her! She’s an intelligent, outspoked commentor and not being victimized in anyway.
Just look at the above exchange between Matrix and Anjali-
He’s being perfectly reasonable aknowledging her intelligence and erudition but disagreeing with her jeremiads on the topic of gender. He then mentions that she is a well-read law school graduate (which is not an insult in any imaginable way!) and she responds saying that he is attacking her personally, shaking in fear and smiling falsely etc- and your reaction to this is to completely overlook her comment and instead needlessly pick on Matrix for mentioning that he lives in the USA!
Simiarly when she dedicates an incredibly harsh song to the ‘bigoted liberals’ you start cheering her on but if one of us was to have done something similar you would have made it look like we had committed some kind of a crime against Anjali!
How are we even supposed to have any kind of meaningful debate on the blog if you completely ignore her comments and attack us every time we retort in kind? You need to have some semblance of logic/ consistency/ fairness if you decide to start policing and criticizing everybody’s comments!
Again- this is NOT an objection to Anjali’s comments- I don’t mind the spirited language that she uses while enganging in debate- but it is extremely unfair for Alex to object to anybody who does not pander to her the way he does while in the midst of a heated arguement!
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August 5, 2012 at 10:56 AM
“I think your mind is rather more ‘open’ to ‘fresh ideas’ when they come from a certain gender..!”
Right said Fred 🙂
After all, I’m a ‘Normal’ guy…I don’t deny it hahah
Similarly, I have noted a strong urge in many here!
Why is everyone feeling the compulsive urge to gang up and ‘prove’ anjali wrong !!
We are not in Khomeinis Iran here and nor is he/she saying something blasphemous or anti national or terrorism related
Is it because in this game of ‘oneupmanship’, it is being felt imperative to contest each and every of her comments!!!!
Why not have the ‘magnanimity’ and ‘maturity’ to let a new member have his/her say
One can politely disagree but in this case, it seems more than that..
Infact one should be glad that an (apparently) young Indian female mind is coming up with such fresh ideas
And not merely regurgitating/recycling the print matter circulating in media /politically correct circles
There’s no dearth of ‘conformism’ in the world
Originality of any sense shouldn’t be stifled…
Just my opinion 🙂
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August 5, 2012 at 10:57 AM
Just to clairfy again- this is NOT a personal attack on Anjali (and I’m sorry if you interpreted my earlier comment that way) – I’m only objecting to Alex making it look like we are being unfair.
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August 5, 2012 at 11:04 AM
On a lighter note: guys: have some sense of your own 🙂
Amy is very intelligent but its amusing to see all of u behaving like her ‘warriors’
As in DCH : aamir-‘ be a man!’
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August 5, 2012 at 11:05 AM
Exactly Ami. Firstly some often mistake a ‘weird’ opinion of being ‘fresh’. Secondly if u have noticed I and you have had many heated arguements here but have u ever seen Alex come and support any of us (our our stale ideas) then? Then he only sits by the fence and has fun watching us ‘fight’. But obviously Ms. Anjali deserves a ‘saviour’ here. Alex is someone whom i admire and a share a camaraderie with but his ‘stance’ here is a bit off-putting
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August 5, 2012 at 11:07 AM
“We are not in Khomeinis Iran here”
Ironic that you should keep saying that- because the gender politics that Anjali endorses are very similar to that school of thought!
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August 5, 2012 at 11:13 AM
Amy: why do u have a problem with my ‘supporting’ anjali:
😉
‘this is NOT a personal attack on anjali’-I think it is Amy (aided by other ‘warriors’)
But I am not affected by numbers
I do my own thing 🙂
Btw sometime back there were similar attacks on poor Oldgolds stance on IVF etc
I ‘supported’ her (not for ivf literally ) but for her views …and learnt something new.
Hahaha
Dil garden garden ho gaya!
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August 5, 2012 at 11:14 AM
“Amy is very intelligent but its amusing to see all of u behaving like her ‘warriors’
As in DCH : aamir-’ be a man!’”
NOBODY has been arguing with Anjali just to support me.On the other hand you have been mindlessly attacking everybody who dares to disagree with Anjali while contributing no ideas of your own to the discussion- that’s behaving like her personal warrior- what Satyam/ Matrix/ Saurabh were doing was making rational, intelligent arguements based on their own beliefs. So perhaphs you should take your own DCH advice.
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August 5, 2012 at 11:15 AM
“Amy is very intelligent but its amusing to see all of u behaving like her ‘warriors’”- though i find this statement condescending i will let Ami reply to this
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August 5, 2012 at 11:16 AM
Amy:
In the beginning I liked your comments and congratulated u..
Recently I have noted u are falling prey to the perils of ‘political correctness’ and ‘catering to a target audience’ somewhat
Make your mind (not body) free
Like a bird…
Not saying u become a ‘free spirit’ or something..
Let it flow 😉
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August 5, 2012 at 11:16 AM
I don’t have a problem with you ‘supporting’ Anjali- I have a problem with you targetting me in the most nonsensical way possible in order to support Anjali!
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August 5, 2012 at 11:18 AM
“though i find this statement condescending i will let Ami reply to this”
I’ve replied to it just above your comment Saurabh! 😛
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August 5, 2012 at 11:19 AM
🙂 ROFL
One needs to get some sunny leone now …
Disclaimer: I refuse to get drawn into any further arguments on tnis and reserve the right to support / debate with someone..
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August 5, 2012 at 11:27 AM
Contd from above-
“There are more than hints of a correlation between chromosomal shape/size on body morphology
Due to the risks /ethical /safety concerns, these experiements can’t be done on humans but there is enough linkage on animals/other life forms
If u are interested, do spare some time to go through this for eg-
http://www.nature.com/hdy/journal/v91/n1/full/6800280a.html
Not knowing about these things is natural and not unusual..
But one should have an insight about that ‘lack of knowledge’ and the accompanying ‘humility’”
Ps: btw did u find that info/link useful to the studies on genetics?
Cheers
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August 5, 2012 at 11:29 AM
And Amy:
“Make your mind (not body) free
Like a bird…
Not saying u become a ‘free spirit’ or something..”
What did ya feel about that (frankly)
Just take it as friendly advice…. 🙂
Dhinka chika Dhinka chika ….
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August 4, 2012 at 4:04 PM
“And lastly repeated question marks by satyam and ami has been raised about my personal life….. my education and all that.i would request you to desist from asking such questions”- Anjali u need to chill. Firstly i don’t think Ami made a personal remark. She may at times be a bit harsh and dogmatic with her views but i can vouch for it that she never gets personal (and isn’t it u who keeps taking dig at her by calling her a feminist !). And when u accuse Satyam of getting personal, u r being dishonest
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August 4, 2012 at 5:20 PM
@ ami
that is because there is societal pressure.a woman without a job is looked down upon.so i have to fake.
tum tanha duniya se ladoge
bacho si baatein karte ho…….syndrome.
but i am against the whole system.even arundhati roy is against the principles of indian sovereignty( state sovereignty is the sacrosanct pillar of the constitution) when she talks about kashmir and marxists issues. even though arundhati enjoys the protection of that same state and follows the laws of the same INDIA whose sovereignty she finds exploitative.
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August 4, 2012 at 5:39 PM
“that is because there is societal pressure.a woman without a job is looked down upon”
how? You mean the burden to earn is more on woman than man? Societal pressure is there if girl is not doing anything (not studying or doing job) and at parent’s place. People tend to question is something wrong as people think that marriage is natural progression after study. If she is married, I don’t think there is any pressure from society but more from peers.
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August 4, 2012 at 1:14 PM
Anjali- you’ve some very peculiar views! I normally don’t make ‘personal’ comments; I’m making an exception here is in a way tribute to your skills- indeed initially I was dazzled by your comments and I’m still impressed by your sharpness, your erudition. However, when this issue comes up, more often than not the ‘ugliness’ of the content overshadows all other positive virtues. I find the monomania and the jeremiads disturbing; your comments- a curious blend of science, pop psychology, romanticism, mythology, and ignorance- have an everything but the kitchen sink quality to them- a case of all heat no light. You may accuse me of hectoring from a high horse instead of debating your points, but I don’t think there is a debate to be had on this topic- we don’t even speak the same language. Also I’m not sure how to engage with someone’s flight of fancy.
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August 4, 2012 at 1:18 PM
I personally don’t agree with everyone joining the bandwagon of ‘not agreeing’ with the views of someone who is clearly stating them honestly and without any unnecessary ‘political correctness’
One may disagree but to pass judgements in giving oneself too much credit
Just my opinion..(though I don’t agree with either stance personally lol)
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August 4, 2012 at 1:35 PM
Normally I also don’t believe in joining the bandwagon. But when someone repeatedly expresses a provocative view, a view one finds a bit extreme and off putting, one gets provoked (lol) into throwing the ‘normal’ rules in the nearest dustbin. 🙂
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August 4, 2012 at 2:08 PM
@ matrix.
all science is pseudo science.before newton, the world used the follow the laws of mechanics as formulated by aristotle.obviously,the european physicists had refined it and made it more sophisticated but the fundamental structure and semantics was aristotlean.infact the renaissance in the middle age of europe became possible because the greek and roman scientific and other literature became available in translated form.newton changed all that….all the science of the earlier age..became pseudo.
for 3 hundred odd years the world followed all the laws of newtonian mechanics…and then einstein came up with his own theories that changed all.the newtonian science became pseudo.
“light behaves both like a wave and a particle”……do you understand the implication of this simple line?it has demolished the whole edifice of hundreds of years.science is still grappling to explain it…to create a system of rationality….which will explain the essential irrationality of this universe.but it is not possible.all science is pop science……yu are calling my theories romanticism ,mythology and ignorance….my dear this is the very definition of the sum total of human knowledge in every single field of life.when it comes to the basic…the most fundamental aspect of any field….science…law …..psychology…mathematics…..its full of unexplained quandaries and conundrums.what is the value of pi?what is the value of 1/0?just by calling it infinity…..will not solve the problem.if u cant explain 1/0 precisely and can come up only with a romantic,mythical,approximation called infinity.then how do u explain zero(0)?…because zero is the point of reference of the whole number system and zero is nothing but infinity in miniature!
its all pseudo ….in every field…the deepest mysteries are still unsolved and will never be solved.because rationality is nothing but irrationality with the best arguments and justifications.
all our theories are makeshift..mythical..romantic…idiotic…..
even in psychology….in fact psychology is full of wild guesses and make believe assertions.human mind has not been understood at all.from frued to jung to adler to the recent shrinks…its all a big farce in technical jargon.ever changing…ever contradicting.
man can never understand this world….this world will remain unknowable.
so when u call my theories as pop…or pseudo..or romantic…let me assure you..all the theories are the same.
even in law….the positivists are grappling with the naturalists….and this has given rise to a third subversive strain called critical theorists…who say there is no law…. its all a joke.
look at the world around you……its still as much a mystery as it was when adam stepped out …banished and humiliated from paradise into it for the first time.all other claims are…to quote you….
“a curious blend of science, pop psychology, romanticism, mythology, and ignorance”.
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August 4, 2012 at 2:15 PM
🙂 anjali- u didnt thank me for the ‘support’..anyhow.
To understand the ‘depth’ of this, the pre requisite is ‘openness’, ‘lack of bias’ and objectivity..
After that, one is free to disagree (politely).
But one has to agree that most things in life are still not understood fully-most things are ‘hypothesis’ @ best-not facts..
So till then-one may express opinions-(but not judgements!)
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August 4, 2012 at 2:20 PM
@ alex..i just came online now.and i saw the evil conspiracy brewing against me in my absence.you were the only voice of sanity in that babel….. full of evil tongues..
thnx a lot alex.
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August 4, 2012 at 2:22 PM
Haha dont worry anjali
I’m always in the side of the ‘right’ or mostly the ‘vulnerable’..
🙂
Ps: “full of evil tongues..”
That sounds like an orgy –oops…lol
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August 4, 2012 at 2:36 PM
“….in every field…the deepest mysteries are still unsolved and will never be solved.because rationality is nothing but irrationality with the best arguments and justifications.
all our theories are makeshift..mythical..romantic…idiotic…..”
Wow….
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August 4, 2012 at 2:45 PM
from lusty american pie to matrix one can see every genre(member) in this thread……
world is indeed curious but time and again evolution has changed theories and will continue to do so and this curiosity give rise to invention and rationality and its applicable to every debate even this men vs women thing to
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August 4, 2012 at 2:50 PM
@Anjali
All very well…but consider this for a moment: you- a well read female law school graduate- in India and I in the US of A (:)) are in a discussion (??) right now…we may not know to explain zero, but we surely left the garden of eden long time ago!
@Alex
you do the agony uncle routine really well…haha
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August 4, 2012 at 3:12 PM
@matrix
ur personal attack on me…..clearly shows that my impersonal views have somehow hit u rather personally…. and i can see the forced smile on ur face….. and the chattering teeth…as u typed down the reply.dont worry its a part of the agony and the ecstasy called blogosphere.
do u u want alex as ur agony uncle….
alex…..matrix needs help!
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August 4, 2012 at 3:17 PM
@Anjali
you give yourself too much credit….
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August 4, 2012 at 3:28 PM
Cool it folks
Life is short -chillax
Ps Marix- not sure how your being in USA makes a different
Certain things in life stay the same-the ‘facts’
Like ‘death’
The rest are all hypotheses–so one can’t be judgemental on others’ views beyon a point …
🙂
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August 4, 2012 at 3:36 PM
Alex- ohh didn’t mean to boast that I’m in the US. Just wanted to emphasize that human being has progressed since the time of Adam and Eve…I hope internet is a sign of progress or am I being too judgemental? 🙂
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August 4, 2012 at 3:44 PM
Agree with that matrix 🙂
But the point is that inspite of all the ‘progress’ certain facts/realities remain -like ‘death’!!-The few absolute truths
Rest are all ‘relative’ or semi or pseudo or convenient truths …
Cheers
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August 4, 2012 at 3:46 PM
@ matrix
i wud have accepted that the human civilization has progressed……any happy delusion is better than being disillusioned.
sadly,a chance encounter with a certain lady living in US of A(ss)…snatched that possibility away. 🙂
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August 4, 2012 at 4:03 PM
Which lady ? 😉
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August 3, 2012 at 5:50 PM
“Can’t answer that.”–hmm caught ya there…Even u !! Lol
That was a key moment in this delectable script…I’m somewhat surprised u missed it!
U remember my first comment after seeing this film-
“I wonder how much of what they ended up making was actually intended by Imtiaz/adjania”
Know there is some hyperbole here, but there were shades of euro ‘milan kundera-ism’ @ play here…anyhow…
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August 3, 2012 at 6:08 PM
Alex adams: Talking of Kundera , I remembering you asking me about Unberable Lightness of Being. I had read the book and then a friend told me she had DVD of the film. A film of the book? someone actually dared? And then i found it was a ‘ delectable’ translation to film. Julitte Binoche has been my long time favourite. But the most admirable part was how kaufman manged to capture the spirit of the book.
Who will give me a film version of Murakami – another unfilmable author and my current favourite? Kafka On the Shore would break any director’s back. Maybe they should try ‘ Norwegian wood’ first.
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August 3, 2012 at 6:16 PM
Haha thanx for trying it..
Well, if I remember Correctly, also Kundera was involved in the making of the film by Kundera-
Kundera was damn pissed seeing the final version thinking that certain key elements were ‘ run over’/missed
Think there is a warning now with his works -‘ not to be adapted’
Ps- it has one of my favourite actors DDL
Julie binochet is (was) remarkable…
If u are looking for a similar vibe: check out irons/binochet in ‘damage’…
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August 4, 2012 at 12:25 PM
Pranav- women have been taking giant strides in the Indian banking/ finance sector- and while it’s true that there still is a long way to go before any kind of real gender parity exists- it’s heartening to see how quickly women are beginning to bridge the gulf of gender inequality in this sector-
“India offers some respite for Wellington. The banking sector in the country did have its male domination till the 1980s, but in the last three decades the gender equilibrium became ‘fairly’ poised.
According to a study by Standard Chartered Bank about women on corporate boards in India, the financial sector performs best in terms of gender diversity, nine of the eleven banks listed on BSE-100 have a woman on their board and two of these banks have a female CEO. In fact, through the recent recession, Reserve Bank of India had two women deputy governors on board, Usha Thorat and Shyamala Gopinath.
ICICI Bank, India’s second largest bank after State Bank of India, is headed by a woman, Chanda Kochhar. So is the third largest in the private sector, Axis Bank, with Shikha Sharma at its helm. HDFC Ltd, India’s largest housing finance group has Renu Sud Karnad as its managing director; Kalpana Morparia heads the Indian arm of global financial leviathan JPMorgan Chase & Co; Meera Sanyal is the country executive for Royal Bank of Scotland and; Manisha Girotra is the managing director of Union Bank of Switzerland’s India operations.”
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August 4, 2012 at 3:44 PM
Ami, I am glad that women are making progress. Like matrix said its just a matter of time, the next two decades will look different. Both Satyam and Matrix have put forward rational arguments backed with facts, I have trouble understanding abstract arguments maybe because I didn’t pay for a liberal arts education. As Satyam said, the top schools have almost 50% women. I can attest to that fact, but in all fairness I am not sure if it’s purely based on merit or there is a quota. I was also involved in interviewing in school for new students and I suspect they have buckets for gender, non-profit, foreign students etc. So those numbers have to be taken with a grain of salt.
Over time the corporate world will evolve and it will just based on who has the most talent and is the brightest, irrespective of gender.
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August 4, 2012 at 1:31 PM
Amy: thanx for pasting those news items and congrats to these ladies
May more of these flourish
Btw Amy : since u r a bright/sensible gal- tell me how to tackle some ‘oversmart’ female colleagues @ work..(read post above)
A genuine question … 🙂
Ps: now don’t deny that these gals dont exist …
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August 4, 2012 at 1:55 PM
^ Amy : I innocently came to u for ‘guidance’ on ‘how to tackle this..’
Why this sudden silence?
Don’t want to assume that u are also one of em 🙂
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August 4, 2012 at 3:15 PM
Beyond a point, arguments get immaterial..
Am not even saying, I agree to all of one POV or the other…
But it somewhat surprises me where everyone feels compelled to go to great lengths to prove a new blog member wrong!!
One may not agree with that but trying to
But it isnt difficult to appreciate the depth and originality of thought of a young female mind
And all this talk of female equality is ok but stifling and collectively ridiculing it isn’t really great..
Ps-matrix:yes I play the ‘agony’ role well, but many other roles as well lol
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August 4, 2012 at 3:36 PM
And to lighten the mood, folks
Since this is a kjo thread
Kjo/SRK in happier(more successful) days..
Check out the foolish/idiotic yet fun comedic timing
‘ramdayal’ 🙂
Ps: anjali: do u like ramdayals…lol
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August 4, 2012 at 3:57 PM
Haven’t bothered to read the positions but what is the gist 🙂
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August 4, 2012 at 4:07 PM
Lol !!!
Gist : Uski kameez meri kameez se zyaada safiad kaise 😀
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August 4, 2012 at 4:25 PM
I was trying to figure why there is so much heat in this thread when the movie is as stale as it gets .
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August 4, 2012 at 4:14 PM
Here is a little song dedicated to all the progressive/liberals and the world they are so hell bent on creating.its already happening….we are all making the “heart break machines” for ourselves:
Now Ophelia, she’s ‘neath the window
For her I feel so afraid
On her twenty-second birthday
She already is an old maid
To her, death is quite romantic
She wears an iron vest
HER PROFESSION’S HER RELIGION
Her sin is her lifelessness
And though her eyes are fixed upon
Noah’s great rainbow
She spends her time peeking
Into Desolation Row.
Enjoy the Desolation Row!
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August 4, 2012 at 4:29 PM
Lol@”heart break machines”
Ps: there was a mention of that in ‘rockstar’
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August 4, 2012 at 4:34 PM
@alex
mistake…its “heart attack” machine.
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August 4, 2012 at 4:39 PM
Oops anjali: pray don’t give me such shocks 😉
Anyhow: it’s effectively the same thing, more or less….
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August 4, 2012 at 5:22 PM
Ok guys I think we’ve had enough of this entire discussion as well as the ‘humor’ from Alex. Let’s move on to other stuff.
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August 29, 2012 at 4:56 PM
Hi, this is my first comment on this blog. Just wanted to stop by and say I loved the way you and Ami handled this debate on the blog. It is some of the best moderation I have seen of a general interest blog. Things got heated and personal and often even ridiculous and both of you never, ever respond in kind and have been infinitely patient. More power to you!:)
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August 29, 2012 at 6:45 PM
Hi soniajoseph-gud 2 hear from u!
If the compliment was for me-thanx
Even if not-I will accept it on satyams behalf –he is a gentleman and loves me blindly …
Btw–if I now rememwber correctly –saw some of your interactions somewhere –were v good–think they were on cocktail?
With utkal mohanty uncle –maybe I’m getting mixed up..
But if it was u–v enlightening stuff
Especially on gals wanting to ‘think’ stuff in their mind while guys wanting to ‘see’ it –interesting concept 🙂
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August 5, 2012 at 10:04 AM
yes lets get back to our casting of Godfather 🙂
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August 5, 2012 at 11:36 AM
Re: the pre requisite is ‘openness’, ‘lack of bias’ and objectivity..
or lack of conviction or firmly believed,reasoned opinions.
Alex,
Your ‘gallant’ support of Anjali would be touching if one could detect an iota of sincerity or any constructive thought process. Accusing everyone who begs to differ of joining a bandwagon or ganging up against Anjali just smacks of shameless pandering. There is a pattern here that is somewhat nauseating and disturbing tho not uncommon in blogospheres.
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August 5, 2012 at 11:39 AM
Hmm rajen uncle: agree !
Didn’t know my ‘support’ will become so crucial and a topic of national importance…
I repeat: it continues to be MY prerogative lol — who says it is ‘fair’lol
Ps : rajen uncle :How was jism 2 though 🙂
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August 5, 2012 at 1:01 PM
Ok folks the topic is closed on this entire discussion, all further responses on this subject (the ‘feminism’ debates) will be deleted.
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August 5, 2012 at 1:06 PM
Good idea. Incidentally it makes sense that a thread on Johar’s film inspired such “deep” discourse.
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August 5, 2012 at 1:09 PM
Ha!
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August 5, 2012 at 2:24 PM
lol..
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August 6, 2012 at 10:04 AM
http://indiatoday.intoday.in/story/student-of-the-year-karan-johar/1/211597.html
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August 6, 2012 at 11:09 AM
yes but why is he not having fun with stars this time around is the question! I have of course talked about this in my first comment in this thread.
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August 27, 2012 at 2:12 PM
SOOOOOOOO BAD!!!!
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August 27, 2012 at 2:12 PM
Gotta luv the original and the gentle disco dancing
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August 27, 2012 at 3:30 PM
Thanx karbarak
Actually have heard bits of nazia hassan
Isn’t she the one who died young ?
Cute with a pleasant voice ..
Ps-Aliya Bhatt-isn’t she a minor
Ps2: this is the ‘most awaited film of the year’ for some like Amy 🙂
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August 29, 2012 at 1:32 PM
Yes dead.
Longer track sounds terrible.
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September 4, 2012 at 4:41 AM
absolutely dull, flat, and uninteresting.
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September 8, 2012 at 12:04 AM
really like the new song. 🙂
very subtle music, with some heart-warming lyrics!
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September 8, 2012 at 6:49 AM
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September 8, 2012 at 7:42 AM
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September 8, 2012 at 7:52 AM
Thanx dr Shaurya –some nice stuff there from nazia hassan 🙂
Actually came across her music recently as a ‘blast from the past’!
She does seems an ‘atypical’ ‘female’ pop icon.. Isn’t she Pakistani?
Good vocals, rhythm sense ( she was also cute which helps)
Ps: she reminds me of someone–can’t exactly remember who…
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September 8, 2012 at 7:55 AM
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September 8, 2012 at 7:58 AM
@ AA
I too came to know about her few years ago.. And she is exceptionally beautiful too.. Apart from having a silk like voice. She died very young at 35 due to Lung cancer.
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September 8, 2012 at 8:25 AM
Thanx again shaurya
Some nice clips there…
There’s something about her ‘voice’ that makes one stop –the ‘cuteness’ is a bonus
Apparently she is buried in London
Found this documentary on YouTube just now–couldn’t see it –if anyone does-plz summarise
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September 8, 2012 at 8:33 AM
@ shaurya and other guys
Check out this highly ‘basic’ video of (less than) amateur home video production values …
But there is ‘simplicity’ and ‘grace’
All those fans of kAreena kapoor !!!!–see this … 🙂
Ps: she reminds me of someone –am struggling to rememwber ….
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September 8, 2012 at 11:40 AM
the song that made her overnight star thanks to feroz khan and ya she does look like anushka sharma and in terms of footage alisha chinoy
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September 8, 2012 at 11:47 AM
do try to lookout for aabida’s praveen (lal meri pat in sindhi) shaurya which was totally destroyed in quality by junnon) by their version
only bit of sanity one has seen in pakistan in movies in terms of recent time by this director( forget his name) in his movie
(raag komud in awadh language describing krishna)
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September 8, 2012 at 11:55 AM
Thanx rockstar -yes she resembles anushka
I was talking about some girl I knew who resemblance her- can’t place
Prefer naziA infinitely to Abida Praveen !! 🙂
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September 8, 2012 at 8:52 AM
After being motivated by drshaurya–
‘exploring’ more of nazia hassan
A rare live performance where she is having fun!
Don’t mind her bro ‘performing’ with her though it becomes a bit incestuous at times
Live in dubai
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September 8, 2012 at 8:57 AM
Don’t worry-I have something for everyone!
Something for Amy, oldgold, Anya, sonia etc—a song for their ‘fantasies’ 🙂
Hahaha
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September 9, 2012 at 3:49 AM
The girl on Left is Meera sayal… We have seen her in many crossover Movies… She is a British indian Actor
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September 9, 2012 at 4:48 AM
Yes shaurya-they were part of a girl band called ‘saffron’ with biddu presumably during her days in London -as per wiki’
‘then he kissed me’ is part of that album..
Discovered another track –aag!!
Good retro stuff
Something about the voice timber and pitch that is a unique combination of south east Asian style plus western pop!
Ps–sadly this talent died at the age of 35!!!
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September 9, 2012 at 8:46 PM
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September 10, 2012 at 9:58 AM
I am talking about Barfi. And Student of the Year.
Everything about Barfi is fresh. Something that you have not seen or heard before. There has been films about disabled people, but they have been naturalistic portrayals. Here is a stylistic one with unnatural stylistic acting. The music is a total breakaway from the current trends. The actors especially Ranbir and Ileana look in top form. The anointing of Ranbir as the prince of acting that started with Roockstar will reach kits logical culmination with this film. The Kolkata backdrop , the visuals are all very fresh.
It is bound to make more than 70 cr. If it can mkae more I can say after seeing the film.
Now take Student of The Year. Everything about it as stale as yesterday’s newspaper. The styling looks anything but cool. The three protagonists look all plastic, without a shade of personality. The guys especially look expressionless hunks and incredibly older than the college students they are supposed to play.
The music sounds twenty years old. In terms of setting Karan seems to have learnt nothing beyond his Kuchh Kuchh Hota Hai days. Well, he will get a few romantic moments right and Aliya can work as an attractive eye candy. Overall it’s a big yawn. It will make some money, but not too much. And respect? None
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September 10, 2012 at 10:14 AM
Student of the Year looks like Always Kabhi Kabhi
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October 8, 2012 at 12:29 PM
http://www.hindustantimes.com/Entertainment/Bollywood/Student-Of-The-Year-will-break-3-Idiots-record-RGV/Article1-941606.aspx
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October 8, 2012 at 7:32 PM
rgv should talk! when was the last time he made something that wasn’t crap? tight close-ups & loud background music don’t make your movie more serious or relevant. now he is a frustrated has been displaying his ‘wit’ on twitter. sad!
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October 9, 2012 at 3:32 PM
“tight close-ups & loud background music don’t make your movie more serious or relevant. now he is a frustrated has been displaying his ‘wit’ on twitter. sad!”
Hahaha anya –sad to see rgv petering out like this
The guy surely has/ had potential though …
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October 8, 2012 at 2:05 PM
Now I ususally don’t care about tags like ‘prestige’ or different bu with this film kjo has hit a new low ..
Not only metaphorically –since apparently kjo is ‘dating’ (& wht not!) his ‘discovery’ –that new guy …
Ps/ songs seem typical teeny but one of em –somehow inspite of being bullcrap ad infantile –isnt bad if one is lenient
‘Ishq wala love…’ 😉
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October 8, 2012 at 5:35 PM
Now this film and the entire set up maybe ultra crap but why should this good melody play a price
To hell with pseudos and hypermatures
Liked this song–not bad—good ‘job’ kjo
And yes– this guy Siddharth is good
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October 10, 2012 at 5:03 PM
^^Now this is v v embarrassing but who cares…
In this ultra crap film with gutter setup & infantile school kiddish treatment —
Somehow have liked this one melody–somewhat addictive with good guitar–the male vocal os good
And move over gulzar, javed Akhtar
Here come ‘deep’ lyrics–courtesy google 🙂
Surkh wala, soz wala, faiz wala love
Hote hai jo love se jyada waise wala love
Ishq wala love
Hua jo dard bhi kabhi toh aaj kuch zyada hua
Ye kya hua kya khabar yehi pata hai zyada hua
Like the intervening guitar
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